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can't wait to try the Tiger!

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#61
SasQuatch said:
Could you write down an example tank line up that you would like to see on Arad and think will be give properly balanced and fun playing map? (assuming you are convinced the current Arad and Barashka are now completely unbalanced)
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1. reduce the number heavy tanks of (Tiger, Panther, IS-2) that are available to 1

2. move heavy tank (Tiger, Panther, IS-2) spawn points further from the front (and further from tank crew spawn points) so that they take a longer time to replace when they are lost.

3. replace the removed IS-2s on the Russian side with T-34/85s

4. (optional) add more BA-64s to tank crew spawn points so they can travel to heavy tank spawn points, or catch up to existing tank crews already in action
 
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#62
You know the funny thing is the t-34 could not kill a tiger as easy as it would seem. Certian things are not taken in consideratioon of the tank modelling. That is 2 simple things, Overmatch of armour thickness and projectile diamater, and the quality of armour. The first thing that made the tiger unique was that it had the highest quality armour making it really expensive but was the best of the best. This amour was made to take punishment. Secondly Overmatch in short means that the if the diameter of the projectile is more than the thickness of the amour, it raises the chances of pentration. I dont know the exact numbers but if diameter is about twice the size of the amour it is shooting at the chances are extremely high of penetration. Example Tiger's 88mm cannon vs T-34 45mm sloped armour. This is how the tiger could get kill shots of over 3000 meters in real combat. And you might think you've heard of how sloped doubles the armour essiently, and this is not true. While having sloped does help no doubt, but it can not make up that much of a difference. This is also why a t34/85 with its 85mm cannon against the tigers 100mm front amour (being of the highest quality) could not score pentration easily. I think its around 900 meters at the sides to score pentrations. That is the side not front, Im not sure what the numbers are for the front. I can back this all up with facts if you guys want, I will find the websites where i found out this info.
 
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#63
Heinz said:
sure. :)

let me preface it by saying that I have only played 3 hours post-patch RO. So, the thing very well may have evened out with the patch armor-game imporvements, but I fear not. jury still out on that.

Current armor force pool on Arad:

Germans: 2 x Panther, 4 x Tigers, 6 x Pz4's
Russians: 4 x JS2, 8 x T34/85

:eek:

The patch could very well have improved the Tiger enough to level the playing field. however, I would play test the following:

Germans: 4 x Panther, 4 x Tiger, 4 x Pz4's
Russians: Stay the same as current Arad force pool.

OR

Germans: Stay the same as current Arad force pool
Russians: 2 x JS2, 10 x T34/85

OR

Germans: Stay the same as current Arad force pool
Russians: 2 x JS2, 6 x T34/85, 4 x T34/76(c)

(the last one is in the instance that the middle one is still to hairy).

That's my 2 cents. note a related post/thread/poll I made re Arad being unblalanced somewhere around here. Thanks for listening. :)
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Heinz, the pool is divided in two seperate spawns. Basically, each spawn makes up 1 pool so to speak.

The current line up is:
2 Tigers; 1 Panther and 3 PIVF2's facing 2 IS2's and 4 T34/85's.

So you should divide your line ups by 2...

- 2 panthers, 2 tigers and 2 PIVF2's facing 2 IS2's and 4 85's
- 2 Tigers; 1 Panther and 3 PIVF2's facing 1 IS2 and 5 85's
- 2 Tigers; 1 Panther and 3 PIVF2's facing 1 IS2, 3 85's and 2 76's

I think the first one will give the germans an edge but still might turn out ok.

The second one seems very solid to me and is just replacing 1 IS2 by 1 T34/85. As you can read somehwere above, i think the IS does have a disadvantage tactically in it's slower reload times, so I'm not entirely sure about it as far as overall map balance goes. The T34 for instance stands a much better chance in close quarters (the villages) for instance. I never ever go there when im in an IS2 because of the infantry.

The third one seems to give the germans an edge too much, and i sure as hell don't want to sit in those 76's in a line up like that.
 
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#64
SasQuatch said:
What i mean is an actual lineup instead of a formula

So according to you:

If we want the germans to have the following lineup:

2 tigers; 1 panther; 3 PIVF2's (currently arads axis lineup)

We should make the allied team:

2 T34/85; 1 IS2 (arguably); 3 T34/76

Currently the allies have 2 IS2's and 4 T34/85.
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Yep, that's the jist. I provided a formula rather than a list because the formula is more flexible. The only comment that I would make is that there should be 2 panthers instead of one, but perhaps your note below that the T34 is more vulnerable than the PzIV balances that out.

I am a bit concerned about the tank crews in the T34/76's here. They can basically only concentrate on the PIV's and don't stand one chance what so ever in head to head battles against the 3 other german tanks, but they can be killed by every tank out there. The PIVf2 however has a better chance in general (in the team) against most of the russian tanks in that line up, and is even a treat to the IS2 because of the IS2's slow rate of fire.
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Personally I feel that the PzIV's are JUST as vulnerable to the enemy as the T34's are to theirs. The IS-2's slow rate of fire shouldn't actually matter that much against PzIV's because the PzIV's is for all intents an purposes completely useless against the IS-2. Or at least it should be. Perhaps it can flank.


I think one of the issues with the current tank maps is that they seem to focus a LOT on the "better" tanks, and thus the PzIV's and T34/76's take a back seat. I'd like to see the map loadouts reflect the HISTORICAL presense of the tanks on the battlefield during that battle (or the year of the map if no actual battle is being represented).

That would mean that the Tiger is extremely rare, but it would also mean that the IS-2 is also rare, though maybe not AS rare.


Probably the best solution would be for me to shut the hell up and learn how to make my own maps and then I could actually create some maps that represent 1942 and 1943 battles. Of course, I'd need you guys to model the KV-1 for me (the good one, not the scout one on Barishaka).
 
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#66
The Panzer IVs should definatly be trying to flank.

I mean it shouldn't be to hard for a IS2 to tear through their super thin armor, maybe even a T/34 85 could. And their turrets would have problems with frontal armor.

However, if they try and take a hill to the flank of the Russians, and use their mobility as more of a defense than their armor, and shoot Russian tanks from the thinner side armor, they can be very useful.

I don't know about post-patch, but pre-patch 90% of Russian tanks and many German tanks went to the south field for a river battle. German infantry went to North Village, Russian infantry either goes to South Village or might try and back up Russian tanks in South field. Either way, lets just ignore inf for a second.

If the panzer 4s go to the hill West of South village (ans southwest of North field) they can have a clear view of the Russian tanks heading to Southfield. There usually tends to be Russians in the North field, but I found a good spot (pre-patch terrain) where a dip in the Terrain gives shielding from the North Field, (and the area around North village where the Russian tanks tend to be coming from, since at that location they tend to be looking for German tanks on teh flanks.) However, it gives visibility into the South field, and deep enough that Russians tend not to be guarding their lfanks.

I was able to 1shot plenty of T34/85s and a few IS2s from the sides using this position.

I will have to check if its still there post-patch.

Either wya, if the Germans use crew skills, Terrain, and good combined arms tactics they will rape the Russians. And this seems historically accurate...Germans used skill and tactics, not sheer technological superiority, to overwhelm the Russian numbers.

Anyways, I would prefer they replace 1 panzer IV with a panther, then see how the game plays out. Keep in mind Germans have superior infantry mobility, anti-tank weapons (and IMO) anti-infantry weapons (Most infantry combat seems to be at medium to long ranges, where the Kar-98 is at a distinct advantage over either the Russian SMGs or PTRD.)
 
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#67
Rameusb5 said:
Do you have any idea how ludicrous the idea of the IS-2's gun "bouncing" off PzIV's turret armor is?

Even at 2000 meters (well beyond the draw distances in game), the 122mm DT-T penetrates 110 mm of armor at 30 degrees, and the PzIV's Turret armor is around 50mm IIRC. What angle were these guys shooting you from, a million?
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I was actually quite close in game. I've been on the Russian side and faced this problem. It seems that the PIV can get into a hull down position where it can still fire but all the Russians can see is the commanders cupola. This thing appears to be 500mm thick (ok I"m joking but it sure seems like it when 122mm shells bounce off).

I had the PIV in the south field in defilade looking straight down the street into the north village. I was hitting T34s straight on and getting the two shot kills (they convienantly came straight down the road towards me). All of their round were bouncing off and I wasn't taking damage. Then 3 tanks moved to my right front and at my right flank. All of their shells were bouncing plus the 2 tanks in the north village. It appeared I could stay in that position all day except for the damn PTRD that had sneaked up behind me. He started damaging me and I turned the turret around to get him (as nobody on my team would come to my defense, bastards :) ). I then took a shell, either because I was now yellow or russians moved to a better flank or I'm guessing they started hitting my thinner rear turret armor.
 
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#68
SasQuatch said:
The third one seems to give the germans an edge too much, and i sure as hell don't want to sit in those 76's in a line up like that.
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I sure as hell don't want to sit in a PanzerIV when the enemy has 2 IS2s rolling across the field.

Get my drift? The shouldn't be any PanzerIVs whatsoever. Either you add /76 or you remove the PanzerIV, I was just playing on Arad, for like 2 hours, the Allies won about 15 times, sometimes they won in just a few minutes because the Germans were completely obliterated by the IS2s, and the T34s advanced at full speed to the fields, not giving the German tanks time to advance.

The IS2 is just too damn powerful, it should be completely removed from the game. If the Germans had 2x TigerII and 4x Panther in Arad, and the Soviets 2x T34/85 and 4x T34/76, what do you think would happen? Those are more or less the loadouts we have right now, except inverted.

The IS2 can just destroy anything right now, it makes the map really unbalanced. Out of all the games I just played the Germans won 1 or 2 at the beginning, then the Soviets racking up win after win to more than 10 consecutively, maybe a total of 15 before me, and many others left the server in complete disbelief.
 
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#70
kabex said:
I sure as hell don't want to sit in a PanzerIV when the enemy has 2 IS2s rolling across the field.

Get my drift? The shouldn't be any PanzerIVs whatsoever. Either you add /76 or you remove the PanzerIV, I was just playing on Arad, for like 2 hours, the Allies won about 15 times, sometimes they won in just a few minutes because the Germans were completely obliterated by the IS2s, and the T34s advanced at full speed to the fields, not giving the German tanks time to advance.

The IS2 is just too damn powerful, it should be completely removed from the game. If the Germans had 2x TigerII and 4x Panther in Arad, and the Soviets 2x T34/85 and 4x T34/76, what do you think would happen? Those are more or less the loadouts we have right now, except inverted.

The IS2 can just destroy anything right now, it makes the map really unbalanced. Out of all the games I just played the Germans won 1 or 2 at the beginning, then the Soviets racking up win after win to more than 10 consecutively, maybe a total of 15 before me, and many others left the server in complete disbelief.
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I am prepared to discuss these things, but i am getting tired to hear things like 'get my drift?' 'any idea how ludicrous bla bla is' 'absolute ridiculous'. I know you have an opinion and are very much convinced you are the uber god of gamedesign, and maybe you are, but still, please try to use a less silly (and obnoxious) phrasing please. At least, if you want me to keep reading your opinions. And I assume that is what you want. ;)
 
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#71
SasQuatch said:
I am prepared to discuss these things, but i am getting tired to hear things like 'get my drift?' 'any idea how ludicrous bla bla is' 'absolute ridiculous'. I know you have an opinion and are very much convinced you are the uber god of gamedesign, and maybe you are, but still, please try to use a less silly (and obnoxious) phrasing please. At least, if you want me to keep reading your opinions. And I assume that is what you want. ;)
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You're right, I came off a little abrasive and I am sorry, but to me, and many others this is very annoying(the armor loadouts).

We were all going "BS!" for the 10-15 rounds the Soviets just completely obliterated us. We tried every tactic, every route, we rushed all over, we did everything we could and the Soviets would just roll over us. Every time the Soviet team won, a German would quit the server saying "I've had enough of this ****".

It's just not fair. I would switch to the Soviet team but that doesn't help anything, I'll just have a field day winning the game time after time.
The other maps are pretty balanced, although I haven't played them much after-patch, and a good tank crew can beat anything else on the field. I'm a firm believer of this, but you're never going to get 6 expert axis tanks versus 6 complete "noob" soviet tanks, thus loadout-balancing is needed.

I would be happy enough if there was at least some attempt by the Devs to balance the loadouts on Arad(the most played armor map).
If you don't think I have a case, go to the 24/7 Arad server and spectate the battle, please.
 
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#73
I've seen the PzIV get into an invulnerable position a few times as well, post-patch. If the Pz gets turret-down so only the commander's cupola and the very top of the turret is visible, it can still fire but is completely proof to 85mm and 122mm fire - the shells all bounce off. This seems a little off since turret top armour on a PzIV is only 10mm and I would expect even a glancing blow to kill or wound anyone in the turret due to spalling.

Tactically it's not a huge problem since the PzIV gun isn't that powerful and you can always send a T34/85 around the flank to get at the hull, but it could be exploited by the German team to channel the Russian advance in an unrealistic manner.

The Tiger is certainly plenty well-protected now, it took me two 85mm rounds right in the engine to kill one from the flank at around 300-500m. I've seen a Tiger near the German village on Arad take numerous hits from at least two 122mm guns plus two or three 85mm without suffering any apparent damage - all the rounds just glanced off.
 
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#74
Hmmm...
I think Arad has been given to the Russians, and Bonderavo to the Germans...
Playing on Bonderavo, I havn't lost once, and on Arad, I havn't won once (Well, once, but it was 12 kruats vs 5 russians)...
No clue about Baraskha, but I know that in Iron Crescnedo, we will be looking very, VERY closely at the loadouts
 
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#76
10mm for the PzIV F2.

Someone else posted this link: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

The most interesting bit is Penetration Table 03, showing 85mm and 122mm against the Tiger I. It looks like the 122mm is actually a bit underpowered in RO:O, the 85mm is probably about right against the Tiger I but I suspect it's underpowered against the Pz IV F2 given how much worse the latter's armour was. The website claims their source is a German ordnance report.

Cheers
33
 
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#78
Santini said:
Hmmm...
I think Arad has been given to the Russians, and Bonderavo to the Germans...
Playing on Bonderavo, I havn't lost once, and on Arad, I havn't won once (Well, once, but it was 12 kruats vs 5 russians)...
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*Another* German fanboi cry-fest thread? Everybody here writes exclusively from the German perspective. In these threads, once reader gets to the page 3 one should assume "we" = Germans "them" = Soviets, without even thinking about it.

*yawn*

At least the above poster is fair enough to point out THE biggest problem with the game as it stands, and that is *team stacking*. Yeah how come you complain about vulnerability of German tanks when you admit, in the same paragraph, you were outnumbering Sovs by more than 2:1 :confused: :confused:

What do YOU think is the bigger problem realism wise: Germans outnumbering Sovs on a LATE war map, or tank modelling?

Them damn Soviets, outnumbered, yet they dare ruin your Tiger pwn4g3 with them damn commie monster tanks? Dude I feel for ya :D

Wake me up when it's over.....

SasQuatch - good job on patch mate. Tanks aside, new objectives managed to bring Barashka back from the dead :cool:
 
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#79
Oleg said:
*Another* German fanboi cry-fest thread? Everybody here writes exclusively from the German perspective. In these threads, once reader gets to the page 3 one should assume "we" = Germans "them" = Soviets, without even thinking about it.

*yawn*

At least the above poster is fair enough to point out THE biggest problem with the game as it stands, and that is *team stacking*. Yeah how come you complain about vulnerability of German tanks when you admit, in the same paragraph, you were outnumbering Sovs by more than 2:1 :confused: :confused:

What do YOU think is the bigger problem realism wise: Germans outnumbering Sovs on a LATE war map, or tank modelling?

Them damn Soviets, outnumbered, yet they dare ruin your Tiger pwn4g3 with them damn commie monster tanks? Dude I feel for ya :D

Wake me up when it's over.....

SasQuatch - good job on patch mate. Tanks aside, new objectives managed to bring Barashka back from the dead :cool:
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Yesterday me and many others witnessed the Soviets winning 10-15 rounds in a row, on Arad with ease.

Just now I got out of the 24/7 Arad server and the Soviets had won 6 times in a row(looked like they were going to win again).

Each time the German tanks spawned, people would try and advance to the fields only to be destroyed right above the river for the south field or just beyond the spawn point when going for the north field.

The IS2s were having a field day destroying all the PZIV's from a single shot as far back as possible, while the Tigers and Panthers just stayed as back as they could because they couldn't advance anything without being destroyed.

Go join the 24/7 Arad server. Notice it first hand.

By the way... the only team stacking I've seen after-patch has been on the Soviet team, usually by 2-4 players. :D
 
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