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A bold claim...

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#21
THe original poster was slightly out of line but he does make a few valid points. There most certainly are bugs and things that need fixing. This is acknowledged by all. Tripwire is working on them but in my opinion they are doing so in a very poor manner. After several months, hearing the constant cry of "the patch is coming" becomes more annoying than reassuring. I have a sign hanging in my office which reads:

"There comes a time in every project when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."

FYI, I have an engineering degree.

The gaming industry has taken that saying to heart when it comes to shipping product initially. The result is there is hardly a game out there that doesn't need a patch. Often there are valid reasons for this, since individual computers vary so greatly. At the same time some glaring faults make it through very often...

Tripwire's problem, from my perspective, has been not taking that motto to heart when it comes to patches. Just how many things are you trying to accomplish with one patch? It would be better to get SOMETHING out to the community to attack the most glaring problems and then patch as needed moving forward.

The wonder of the internet has also made it possible for game publishers to put out shoddy products and fall back on the "patch" solution. There was a day, before everyone had the internet, when products had to work out of the box. I was very pleased with many games like Tie Fighter Wars before the internet became the crutch for shoody prouduct. I amnot saying Tripwire has intentionally shipped a shoddy product but the "patch mentality" has infected the whole industry and seems to have become more of a crutch than an enhancement...
 
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#22
let me try to visualise something:
In house testers = lets say 5
Hours needed to locate all bugs and glitches = 500
Time playing needed per tester to find glitches = 100 hours each
Days that would be take of constant gameplay with no sleep food or toilet breaks = 4+change
amount of players available to give feedback = 500
time it takes for players to find all bugs and glitches = 1 hour

this is why games get shipped its faster and cheaper to release a game and then make a patch based on user feedback.
 
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#23
i think what is missing in this thread is a discussion of VALUE.
i bought bf2 $50, moderately buggy, non-immersive to me. support by corp machine, i.e. more consideration for money then fans.
i bought JO+ JO:E, $70, loads of bugs, non-immersive, whacky nerfing by devs. no consideration of fans.
i bought RO:OST $25, minor bugs, immersive to the point it effects my lifestyle. devs who do care, about the fans, and the game itself.

for me its a very obvious value. so much so i bought 2 copies.

everyone has an opinion, this is mine.
 
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#26
whespe said:
I sit in front of you, the dedicated RO forum, to make a bold claim. I herby accuse tripwire of scamming money from innocent gamers. The gamers buy the game under the assumption it will work with the advertised configurations and that it will be relatively bug free. The game has been under development and released for a considerable time. The game is still riddled with bugs, errors, and not nearly optimized for resources usage [including hardware and bandwidth]. These claims I can not make lightly, having personal experience in programming, game developing and large scale application management.

Answer me this Tripwire representatives, various forum admins and dedicated RO fans: Why have these problems not been fixed? What are you doing to let the users play the game and simply enjoy what they paid for?
Click to expand...

This is true, but not really all of Tripwire's fault. I have had several problems with crashing and not starting up but all were because of STEAM! RIGHT NOW i cant play RO because steam freezes whenever i start it up. ARGH and I do have a dsl connection and my comp have handle top games such as obivilion or hl2.
 
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#28
A Bolder claim...

A Bolder claim...

The game seems to be working solid on my MacBookPro (running Windows XP).I've experienced no crashes and no unexplainable 'boots'. In fact, my gaming experience on this has been more stable than Battlefield 2. I can see this game getting tightened up somewhat and being truly the best tactical shooter out there.

Really enjoy the infantry combat, wish there were maps with less tanks (and limit only 1 or 2 to a map with more supporting vehicles).

For a game that wasn't "optimized" as the 'bold claim' would suggest, it runs very well on a computer that it wasn't designed for!

BTW - Windows is glitchy to begin with. I do 90% of my work on it right now but I'm always happy to be in OS X.
 
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#29
Malfunkt said:
For a game that wasn't "optimized" as the 'bold claim' would suggest, it runs very well on a computer that it wasn't designed for!
Click to expand...

To be fair, the next patch is supposed to have a lot of optimization because it currently isn't very optimized and running the game through Steam gives some of us with good system specs anywhere from 2-5 minute load times, even with prechaching turned off.
 
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#30
whespe said:
I sit in front of you, the dedicated RO forum, to make a bold claim. I herby accuse tripwire of scamming money from innocent gamers. The gamers buy the game under the assumption it will work with the advertised configurations and that it will be relatively bug free. The game has been under development and released for a considerable time. The game is still riddled with bugs, errors, and not nearly optimized for resources usage [including hardware and bandwidth]. These claims I can not make lightly, having personal experience in programming, game developing and large scale application management.
Answer me this Tripwire representatives, various forum admins and dedicated RO fans: Why have these problems not been fixed? What are you doing to let the users play the game and simply enjoy what they paid for?
Click to expand...

game runs for for me, as well as thousands of other that play it everyday. for $25 it's a steal!!!!!
 
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#31
I paid $22.45 when I ordered this game from STEAM. There would have to be a hell of a lot more issues and bugs for me to feel cheated having purchased the game at that price.

Personally, I felt much more cheated purchasing a $$$49.99 BF2 and a $29.99 add on and ending up with a product which I feel is inferior to Tripwire's product. And don't even get me going on the available support for BF2 versus RO.
 
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#33
I've had problems and complaints about this game, but, and a very big butt, this is a small dev team providing very decent support compared to the big boys. I will do my best to never purchase another game from EA and their ilk. I have only purchased games from Valve, TW, and Matrix Games in the last year. I'm spending way to many hours enjoying a few decent games.
 
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#34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
"There comes a time in every project when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."

FYI, I have an engineering degree.


Musketeer, although that is an impressive quote, I need to question its applicability to the patch process for a videogame. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but we aren't talking about a bridge or a car or a house, where spending an extra bit of design-time could save you hundreds of man-hours and a ton of money.

We are talking about a group of coders attempting to search out and re-write problematic code. Not problematic code for them mind you, as their original design process included time to optimize RO for their set-up. The Problematic code they are replacing is the coding affecting those people who don't have the same specs as the RO team. This is no easy matter. Have you ever tried making your own program? Even something as straight-forward as an excel macro can mess up if the computer uses different settings, and that's coming from a program that has been standardized on a massive scale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
...There was a day, before everyone had the internet, when products had to work out of the box. I was very pleased with many games like Tie Fighter Wars before the internet became the crutch for shoody prouduct. I amnot saying Tripwire has intentionally shipped a shoddy product but the "patch mentality" has infected the whole industry and seems to have become more of a crutch than an enhancement...


I am afraid I cannot leave this comment alone either. I liked your post Musketeer, and I am sure you can defend your ideas, so I hope you don't mind me turning a critical eye on this.. but here goes:

Are you trying to say that games today are equally comparable in terms of complexity?!? That your simplistic tie fighter game or doom 2, which came 'perfect' out of the box, is at the same level as todays games, let alone RO?

I would argue that those games were easier to make for two reasons:

1) computers were far more standardized due to the high costs for entering into the computer production industry (very little knowledge in general about computer components combined with high cost of those components combined with low consumer knowledge/confidence made it nearly impossible for custom builds) which made IBM/DELL/Gateway and Apple the main producers of computers - and these models were VERY standardized even up to the mid-ninties as I recall

(I bought an IBM aptiva in 1994 and had to create a boot disk for every single one of my games, hardly 'perfect' out of the box)

2) Specialized computer components did not exist as they do today, or at least the market for these components (ie specialized video cards, physics cards, sound cards - ok the sound card bit is a pretty weak argument) was not realizable (ie not profitable and not defined within the consumer psyche)

Thus, even if one were to ignore the fact that gamers require more in a game than they used to (ie compare wolfenstein to system shock 2, then compare ss2 to something like far cry and see how they are different), one would still have to deal with the completely varied configurations that people have, and the inability to forecast what all your consumers are using.

I do not doubt that games are getting released sooner than they used to, and certainly not as polished as they used to, but keep in mind that these things cost time and money.

You said that you are an engineer. Would you like to get paid before or after you complete your next building/bridge or car? How about if you were to get paid after you make sure that this building/bridge or car does not break down in a hurricane, dust storm, earthquake, typhoon, volcanoe erruption, tidal wave, blizzard, etc?

Since some of these stress tests might take years for one to properly understand how the bulding/bridge or car might be affected, should you wait that long before you realize any gain?

I'm not trying to bait you, but you stated that


Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
""There comes a time in every project when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."


which is fine, but you ignore a fundamental question in any development / prodcution, "how done is done?"

I guess that lies up to the manager. A problem arises however: everyone thinks they know the best way to do something, so you will always have to explain yourself. You cannot satisfy everyone.

That's why I think the parent of this thread does not need to be defended. He has an opinion, (a mislead one), but I doubt any discussion on this thread will change his mind. Those of us who have followed these guys since the mod or even anyone who has tried to create something from scratch, understands the effort and the time it takes to make something as large as this.

It is laughable that someone would post such a "claim" and say, in very vague terms, that they have experience in the industry. Anyone who truly has experience in this industry would provide constructive criticism to the TW guys, for they have just about done something that is very rare today. (Since we don't know whether they are raking in the profits, I can't claim they have truly suceeded as a business yet.)

Those who would rather whine, yet make grandiose "claims," seriously aren't worth this communities' time. (and if I fall into that category.. well.. touche! :rolleyes: =)
 
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#35
whespe said:
I sit in front of you, the dedicated RO forum, to make a bold claim. I herby accuse tripwire of scamming money from innocent gamers. The gamers buy the game under the assumption it will work with the advertised configurations and that it will be relatively bug free. The game has been under development and released for a considerable time. The game is still riddled with bugs, errors, and not nearly optimized for resources usage [including hardware and bandwidth]. These claims I can not make lightly, having personal experience in programming, game developing and large scale application management.

Answer me this Tripwire representatives, various forum admins and dedicated RO fans: Why have these problems not been fixed? What are you doing to let the users play the game and simply enjoy what they paid for?
Click to expand...


There has been alot of worser releases!! (worser lol?) :) Roost is definetly one of the worser ones! I could wait forever for optimizations..really im used to playing all games i have with a low end computer ;d

I only get the chance to play the games the way (they were supposed to be played) years after they were released, and i have upgraded my computer :D


so ya.. Troika have made 1 really bad release, bloodlines, andhmm...temple of telemental evil, and now they dont exsist!! i dont think Tripwire will cease to exsist anytime soon, maybe after two more releases of gamses???:pS
 
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#37
trench said:
Now that is a BOLD claim.

Let me know when you find a game that is released in perfect condition.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Well, the really old console games were kind of perfect, I never found any glitch or bug anyways, not that I tried to look for them but yeah, they were pretty much beta tested until the testers died and they had to hire new ones... :D
 
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#39
Musketeer said:
I have a sign hanging in my office which reads:

"There comes a time in every project when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."

FYI, I have an engineering degree.
Click to expand...

One would hope you don't work in an environment where engineering really matters: such as aerospace or the medical field. Spacecraft die, instruments die, and people sometimes get killed when shoddy equipment gets released.
 
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#40
raydude said:
One would hope you don't work in an environment where engineering really matters: such as aerospace or the medical field. Spacecraft die, instruments die, and people sometimes get killed when shoddy equipment gets released.
Click to expand...

jeebus, give the guy a break. he was kidding and quoting something funny. a phrase. you know, humor. something funny, because it's close to the truth but not really.

seems like alot of folks here need a nap & a diaper change. :rolleyes:
 
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