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Arad is sereiously unbalanced

Arad is sereiously unbalanced

  • yes

    Votes: 44 26.3%
  • no

    Votes: 86 51.5%
  • other, I'll explain

    Votes: 7 4.2%
  • what day is it? ;)

    Votes: 30 18.0%

  • Total voters
    167
  • Poll closed .
Well, given the practical differences (more armor, better gun), it makes sense to implement the IV H, but that'll take a while. In the meantime, I recommend that the Germans develop a different approach to tanking on Arad.

The problem with most tank maps is that people don't know how to use the tanks and don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of the tanks (partially because those strengths and weaknesses aren't readily obvious with the current bugged tank code).

People need to use the tanks in their proper roles.

The T34s and Pz IVs are FAST. That's their major advantage. The Pz IV's armor isn't great, but if you angle and use your surroundings well, you can make the tank work wonders. The T34 is just a beast when you use it properly. Even a T34/76 can take an incredible pounding from Pz IVs if used properly. Plus they're ridiculously fast. If people use these two tanks to either shoot and scoot or to fire on the advance and use them to capture positions, they'll be emphasizing the tanks strengths. Even if those tanks have to go up against a heavy tank (IS-2 or Tiger), the approach should be to use your speed to outflank the tank and then hit it from the side or rear. Although ideally, just don't engage them.

What I often see, though, is both types of tanks engaging in standoff battles. This accomplishes nothing and doesn't use the tank to its fullest potential. Think of these tanks as the equivalent of British cruiser tanks. Use them to haul ass around the map and capture points, NOT to hold steady and blast away. That's the job of the heavies.

If Arad is revised to include the T34/76, then the T34/85s that remain should be treated as medium/heavy tanks like the Panther, which can operate both in the role of a long-range killer (the heavy tank role) and in the role of the advancing tank.

As for the heavies, they should park themselves in positions where they have a good field of fire and provide cover for the advancing tanks. They should NOT be trying to take towns. Their job is to kill all the other tanks from long range. The other night on Arad I managed to kill two Tigers who had advanced towards the Soviet side village. I don't know what these guys were thinking, especially since I hit them with flanking shots. The Tiger's turret turn speed is just way too slow to make it useful for anything BUT a standoff, long-range tank destroyer on this map.
 
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kabex said:
... I mean, nothing but T34/85s and IS2s?? WTF?
The 76 was much more common in '44(When the 85 was first fielded), and the IS2 was pretty damn rare.
Not only that but Germans get a bunch of completely outdated PZIVs...

I think this would be a balanced setup: (6 tanks each team)

Soviets:
1 x IS2
5 x T34/85

Germans:
1 x Tiger
2 x Panther
3 x Pz4

or alternative for the soviets:
2 x IS2
2 x T34/85

2 x T34/76


But I think 5 tanks for each team is enough for a combined arms map (as long as there is a limit of 16 players per team).
This would also encourage players more to team up in tanks. :cool:
 
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LordKhaine said:
The pz4 F2 has a 75mm KwK 40 L/43, the H has a 75mm KwK 40 L/48. So it has a higher velocity gun with a fair bit more penetration. The H also has 80mm of frontal armour, compared to 50 for the F2. Which would help a lot obviously. And of course it has the side skirts to protect against AT rifles/stolen fausts.

And perhaps more worrying from a realism point of view is the production figures. 175 F2's were made, 3,774 H's were made. I know the devs did this to make the Pz4 suitable for earlier maps.. but it's just plain crazy to see such a rare stopgap tank being fielded on a mass scale while a backbone of the army isn't available. But it's the same with the Stug3. We have the F model, which was made in the hundreds. While we lack the later G despite almost 8000 of those being made.

yeah, I think that is a key issue. very key. and it's the Germans that are always shorted in this calculation (the tank load outs on almost every map). I wonder why the mappers did it that way. were they instructed to do so, I wonder?
 
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Personally, I don't feel Arad is all that unbalanced. The map itself does highlight a few things about RO that irk me, however. I'll list them here for your viewing pleasure:

#1: The German vs the Russian tanks: As mentioned by the OP, the Russian tanks are across the board more modern than the German ones. While this might be OK for one map, it's pretty much true for ALL of the maps, which is unacceptable IMHO. I'd like to see a few maps set in late '42 -> early '44 where the Germans get Tigers or Panthers and the Russians get T34/76s and KV1's. Thankfully, this can be addressed by custom maps. Please note that I do not in ANY way think the Tiger is underperforming.

#2: The woods: AFAIK, this is the ONLY map with this issue. First of all, we have "unenterable" woods, which is silly. On top of that, the hedges surrounding the woods are bugged, which causes no end of issues with the gameplay.

#3: The clown car: The Russian Scout car (sorry, I don't know it's actual name) highlights an issue that is actually a problem with ALL vehicles, which is the ability to instantly board/bail. This is highly abused on this map (we all know how).

#4: "Difficult" Terrain: There is, AFAIK, no penalty for driving in "rough" terrain in this game. Again, this is highlighted on this map very dramatically.

#5: Cover: Why is this map a golf course? There needs to be more weeds and grass to provide cover.



Arad is probably my least favorite map in the game (Actually it's Konigsplatz, but I digress) because it highlights a lot of the "missing" game mechinics and feels incomplete to boot. Like I said, I don't really feel that it's that unbalanced (I always play German and have won more than lost), but it certainly is buggy. So buggy that it kills the immersion I enjoy in other well made maps like Odessa.
 
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Solo4114 said:
As for the heavies, they should park themselves in positions where they have a good field of fire and provide cover for the advancing tanks. They should NOT be trying to take towns. Their job is to kill all the other tanks from long range. The other night on Arad I managed to kill two Tigers who had advanced towards the Soviet side village. I don't know what these guys were thinking, especially since I hit them with flanking shots. The Tiger's turret turn speed is just way too slow to make it useful for anything BUT a standoff, long-range tank destroyer on this map.

Yes and no. Parking a Tiger on the road, facing east, before the bend in the road at the north village is a great tactic. Sit back enough so the driver can use the bow mg on any infantry coming up and the gunner can engage a whole parade of Soviet tanks crossing the river with flanking shots. With infantry support that tiger can move further into the townand make it damn near impossible to retake or flank. From that position it becomes very hard for the Sovs to threaten the German south field.

Heinz, did you get a chance to see the pz4 H at the armor museum in Mattituck before it closed down and relocated a couple years ago? He also had a T-34 (not sure which) that I had a chance to see running up and down the driveway.
 
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Rameusb5 said:
Arad is probably my least favorite map in the game (Actually it's Konigsplatz, but I digress) because it highlights a lot of the "missing" game mechinics and feels incomplete to boot. Like I said, I don't really feel that it's that unbalanced (I always play German and have won more than lost), but it certainly is buggy. So buggy that it kills the immersion I enjoy in other well made maps like Odessa.

I agree that I feel the map is not unbalanced. I usually play Germans and most of the time am on the winning side.

I am shocked that your least favorite map is Konigsplatz. That map ROCKS in my opinion and I will play it any day over Odessa, which I am growing to hate.
 
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I have no problem with a map that has a lot of wide open spaces. Tank battles did occur at long range and with clear visibility over open terrain. It happened. Besides, there's enough cover to do some damage, and -- especially if you're in a two-man tank, you can still fire on the move.

Which brings me to my second point. Trust me, there is absolutely a detriment to rough terrain right now -- any time you have little tiny bumps in the terrain, while the driver may not notice it, the gunner will be having a hard time keeping the sight on the target. this is, of course, exacerbated by drivers' tendencies to oversteer tanks (namely, to constantly be making slight course corrections, which makes it impossible to aim).

Actually, as a commander, I prefer to never fire on the move. I'd rather get a clean hit while stationary and have the driver move while we're reloading, then come to a stop.

Which reminds me -- I advise tank drivers to turn OFF the gradual throttle. It may seem like a nice touch, but (a) it seriously slows down how fast you come to a stop, and (b) it often ends up with the driver accidentally hitting reverse.

Unless they force this aspect (and it is cool and would be cool if forced), you place yourself at a disadvantage by doing the gradual throttle. You almost never need to move slowly in tanks, so driving at 50% speed is kind of pointless. Unless you're advancing in formation, there's no point in it at the present.
 
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Musketeer said:
Yes and no. Parking a Tiger on the road, facing east, before the bend in the road at the north village is a great tactic. Sit back enough so the driver can use the bow mg on any infantry coming up and the gunner can engage a whole parade of Soviet tanks crossing the river with flanking shots. With infantry support that tiger can move further into the townand make it damn near impossible to retake or flank. From that position it becomes very hard for the Sovs to threaten the German south field.

Heinz, did you get a chance to see the pz4 H at the armor museum in Mattituck before it closed down and relocated a couple years ago? He also had a T-34 (not sure which) that I had a chance to see running up and down the driveway.

My experience on Arad is that infantry support is minimal. Thus, I prefer to simply not enter the town with a Tiger or IS-2. The slow speed and turret turn rates make it prohibitive to drive the things in places where you need to be able to gun down a sneaky satchel trooper.

Once the town is secure, though, it's not a bad idea to move a Tiger up. But mostly I prefer to use Tigers as standoff weapons.
 
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Musketeer said:
I agree that I feel the map is not unbalanced. I usually play Germans and most of the time am on the winning side.

I am shocked that your least favorite map is Konigsplatz. That map ROCKS in my opinion and I will play it any day over Odessa, which I am growing to hate.

I dislike Konigsplatz because IMHO it is VERY biased towards the Allies and I typically (99% of the time) play Axis. I'm sure I would hate Racowitz (sp) if the tables were turned. The only reason the Germans ever win on Konigsplatz is because of the timer, which after a while feels like a cheap victory.

(Hey, we're at 0% reinforcements and you're at 45%, but you ran out of time).

That's a map where the Germans are pretty much outclassed in every category. Out-tanked and out-artilleried (is that a word?), with less reinforcements and terrain that is for the most part very difficult to hold.

If there were some more cover to work with, (not craters but actual buildings), then I'd like it a bit more.

The truth is that I'm primarily a German SMG player, and on Konigsplatz, the SMG is nearly worthless.

EDIT - Oh, and the capzones on that map are silly. They should all be moved back about 20 meters. You shouldn't be able to cap a defensive line from in FRONT of it.
 
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Solo4114 said:
I have no problem with a map that has a lot of wide open spaces. Tank battles did occur at long range and with clear visibility over open terrain. It happened. Besides, there's enough cover to do some damage, and -- especially if you're in a two-man tank, you can still fire on the move.

Which brings me to my second point. Trust me, there is absolutely a detriment to rough terrain right now -- any time you have little tiny bumps in the terrain, while the driver may not notice it, the gunner will be having a hard time keeping the sight on the target. this is, of course, exacerbated by drivers' tendencies to oversteer tanks (namely, to constantly be making slight course corrections, which makes it impossible to aim).

Actually, as a commander, I prefer to never fire on the move. I'd rather get a clean hit while stationary and have the driver move while we're reloading, then come to a stop.

Which reminds me -- I advise tank drivers to turn OFF the gradual throttle. It may seem like a nice touch, but (a) it seriously slows down how fast you come to a stop, and (b) it often ends up with the driver accidentally hitting reverse.

Unless they force this aspect (and it is cool and would be cool if forced), you place yourself at a disadvantage by doing the gradual throttle. You almost never need to move slowly in tanks, so driving at 50% speed is kind of pointless. Unless you're advancing in formation, there's no point in it at the present.

The tanks should not be firing on the move unless at very close ranges. They did not have stabalized guns.

Tanks need to shoot and scoot. To do this right you need a two man tank.

The incremental throttle is fine, I use it all the time. If you want to stop in a hurry use the BRAKE. (same as your jump button)
 
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Rameusb5 said:
I dislike Konigsplatz because IMHO it is VERY biased towards the Allies and I typically (99% of the time) play Axis. I'm sure I would hate Racowitz (sp) if the tables were turned. The only reason the Germans ever win on Konigsplatz is because of the timer, which after a while feels like a cheap victory.

(Hey, we're at 0% reinforcements and you're at 45%, but you ran out of time).

That's a map where the Germans are pretty much outclassed in every category. Out-tanked and out-artilleried (is that a word?), with less reinforcements and terrain that is for the most part very difficult to hold.

If there were some more cover to work with, (not craters but actual buildings), then I'd like it a bit more.

The truth is that I'm primarily a German SMG player, and on Konigsplatz, the SMG is nearly worthless.

EDIT - Oh, and the capzones on that map are silly. They should all be moved back about 20 meters. You shouldn't be able to cap a defensive line from in FRONT of it.

I love the map for the very reasons you hate it. The pressure of playing German and holding off the Soviet advances is fantastic. I figure I win on the German side about 30-40% of the time, and it is always due to coordinating our actions. I prefer to play as a Tiger crew memeber or a Pak-Soldat. As infantry I always find plenty of cover, you just need to be on your belly to se it.

As far as winning with the time running out, that is the point. You are trying to hold off the Soviets long enough for all the Bratwurst to be safely removed from their advance. There is nothing like being down to single digit reinforcements with 5 minutes left and doing a controlled fall back to burn off the clock.
 
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Solo4114 said:
Which reminds me -- I advise tank drivers to turn OFF the gradual throttle. It may seem like a nice touch, but (a) it seriously slows down how fast you come to a stop, and (b) it often ends up with the driver accidentally hitting reverse.
I thought the same thing until I used the brake key (jump). With that you'll avoid those issues you mentioned with incremental throttle. That will instantly set the throttle to neutral position as well as stop the tank as quickly as possible.
 
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LordKhaine said:
I thought the same thing until I used the brake key (jump). With that you'll avoid those issues you mentioned with incremental throttle. That will instantly set the throttle to neutral position as well as stop the tank as quickly as possible.

exactly! I use the brake all the time, and, have great success with the incremental throttle. just ask my gunners on Arad, as we creepy-crawl through the furthest part of the cap zone in a JS-2 FTW. :D

@ Musketeer: yep, I saw that Mark 4 in Mattituck before he took the whole museum south. as a matter of fact, someone posted a picture in these very forums of that exact tank as it was displayed ijn mattituck. I remember posted that I was there, and saw that exact tank in person, but no one seemed to care. :) . I am glad you do. :cool:
 
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Heinz said:
@ Musketeer: yep, I saw that Mark 4 in Mattituck before he took the whole museum south. as a matter of fact, someone posted a picture in these very forums of that exact tank as it was displayed ijn mattituck. I remember posted that I was there, and saw that exact tank in person, but no one seemed to care. :) . I am glad you do. :cool:

Boy was I pissed. I was an annual member too. He got so much grief from the whining liberals out there he had no choice but to bail. They would routinely call the BATF on him to harrass him, even though he was 100% legal. This state really pisses me off...
 
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Musketeer said:
As far as winning with the time running out, that is the point. You are trying to hold off the Soviets long enough for all the Bratwurst to be safely removed from their advance.

LOL...

Well, I can see your point of view. I think my issue is that I play on Pub servers where teamplay isn't the norm. It's very frustrating to be a paksoldat on that map, IMHO. It's very sniper-friendly.
 
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Solo4114 said:
My experience on Arad is that infantry support is minimal. Thus, I prefer to simply not enter the town with a Tiger or IS-2. The slow speed and turret turn rates make it prohibitive to drive the things in places where you need to be able to gun down a sneaky satchel trooper.

Once the town is secure, though, it's not a bad idea to move a Tiger up. But mostly I prefer to use Tigers as standoff weapons.

Infantry support would be better if the map included a rifleman class, sucks to be the guy trying to capture a town as a tank crewmember.
 
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