t-60 penetration research

[[TW]Hattori]

Been doing some research about the T-60 and comparing them to german tanks, heres what I found.

The t-60 was armed with the TNSh cannon, which was a 20mm. Here is the penetration specs on it.

at 90 degrees: Range 50m 100m 300m 500m
^ ^ ^ ^
amount of penetration 35mm 28mm 22mm 15mm
Here is a qoute from some russian tankers
"They were useless against German tanks, but they could be used successfully against enemy infantry and usually caused heavy losses among them. This happened at both Mtzensk and MoscowThey were useless against German tanks, but they could be used successfully against enemy infantry and usually caused heavy losses among them. This happened at both Mtzensk and Mosc"

The Panzer III armour ratings are as follows the first number is the thickness in mm and the second is angle(I dont fully under stand what the angle means)

Panzer III Ausf H

Front Turret: 30/13
Front Upper Hull: 30+30/90
Front Lower Hull: 30+30/23
Side Turret: 30/25
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/13
Rear Upper Hull: 30/30
Rear Lower Hull: 30+30/8
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/89
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 17/77
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 16/90
Gun Mantlet: 37/0

Panzer III Ausf L/M
Front Turret: 57/15
Front Upper Hull: 50+20/9
Front Lower Hull: 50/21
Side Turret: 30/25
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/12
Rear Upper Hull: 50/17
Rear Lower Hull: 50/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 18/79
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 16/90
Gun Mantlet: 50+20/0

The panzer IV is comparble armour wise to the panzer III. And as you can tell an earlier version of a Panzer III could get penetrated by this tank at 50 meters. However anything over 100 meters and the gun is useless at the front and at any angle I imagine. I pretty sure on that, also that qoute is from a russian tanker which gives their opnion on it. So there you have it, maybe a fix is in order.

Websites I used are here:
http://members.tripod.com/George_Parada/pz3.htm
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=50&lang=en

 

[Nebfer]

Basicly even with APCR ammo the T-60 should be only a threat to a Pz III Ausf L from the sides.

 

[TheBeagle]

Just scanned that t-60 article,(will read it later after I play soem ROOF )

and found this:

Ammunition consisted of fragmentation tracer rounds, fragmentation incendiary rounds, and armor-piercing rounds with carbide-tungsten cores. Later, sub-calibre armor-piercing incendiary rounds became available, so the armor penetration increased to 35 mm on 60

 

[FYROM]

I think by subcaliber it means APCR (Armor Piercing, Composite Rigid), like the Pz-III's ammo. Its a smaller caliber hard core surrounded by a lighter, softer metal so it'll fit the gun's caliber. They generally had much better penetration, but weren't widely available.

 

[daschewy]

what are the different types of ammo for the pz. III

 

[Innociv]

well i'd suck to have the tank be useless, no? :/

Or rolled to just be anti-infantry.. well then the maps would all need to be changed.

 

[[TW]Hattori]

Well basically thats what the tank is, a anti infantry tank or a scout tank. It still will be able to penetrate panzer III's and IV's armour at close range from the side or rear.

 

[FYROM]

what are the different types of ammo for the pz. III

The Pz-III has AP and APCR - the APCR is just really, really nice AP rounds with a greater chance to penetrate and do damage, but you only get a few. Great for taking out T-34s...

 

[Witzig]

It was mentioned by some DEV iirc that the T-60 was coded with APCR Rounds to give it a fighting chance.

 

[Mormegil]

What we've got in ROOST is the Panzer III Ausf J. That's got 50mm front AND back. 30mm on the flanks. The Panzer IV's also have 30mm flank, and 20mm rear (Panzer IV were designed to be infantry support originally and Panzer III for anti-tank).


The TNSh fires 20mm Tungsten-Carbide APCR rounds. I think all TNSh rounds were APCR. Here are some specs:

35mm @ 50m
28mm @ 100m
22mm @ 300m
15mm @ 500m
25mm @ 50m (20% of rounds penetrate)
18mm @ 100m (20% of rounds penetrate)

So at 50m to a bit further, you can penetrate the Panzer III armor. You can also take out the tracks of other tanks. It would be nice if you could take out the gun barrel, jam the turret or damage the MG and optics. I guess we'll have to wait a later version of RO.

Edit: Also note that penetration values differ depending on what is considered "penetration." Some sources count 50% of rounds penetrating "penetration" others count 80%, etc.

 

[[TW]Hattori]

The later versions of the Panzer IV have 50 mm front armour meaning that the T-60 could not pentrate at any angle or any distance on the front armour which should be molded in RO. There are even qoutes like I posted from russian tankers saying that the T-60 was garbage against german tanks. So it should be represent as such. It should mainly be an anti-infantry weapon and would be lucky to get a nice flank or rear shot at a tank.

 

[TheBeagle]

What we've got in ROOST is the Panzer III Ausf J. That's got 50mm front AND back. 30mm on the flanks. The Panzer IV's also have 30mm flank, and 20mm rear (Panzer IV were designed to be infantry support originally and Panzer III for anti-tank).


The TNSh fires 20mm Tungsten-Carbide APCR rounds. I think all TNSh rounds were APCR. Here are some specs:

35mm @ 50m
28mm @ 100m
22mm @ 300m
15mm @ 500m
25mm @ 50m (20% of rounds penetrate)
18mm @ 100m (20% of rounds penetrate)

So at 50m to a bit further, you can penetrate the Panzer III armor. You can also take out the tracks of other tanks. It would be nice if you could take out the gun barrel, jam the turret or damage the MG and optics. I guess we'll have to wait a later version of RO.

Edit: Also note that penetration values differ depending on what is considered "penetration." Some sources count 50% of rounds penetrating "penetration" others count 80%, etc.

Right. Then where did the Battlfield.ru author get 35mm @ 60

 

[Felix Ostheim]

ACPR drawback is they peter our at a shorter distance, that's what I read at least. Other than that they are better, but went out of use later in the war because of a shortage of tungsten.