Bullet Penetration..meh

[gimpy117]

The MKB should penetrate a lot, cause as you rightly pointed out it fires a steel cored bullet at high velocity. I however haven't noticed it penetrating any more or any less material ingame than the SMGs, which again is ridiculously unauthentic.

In addition to this the MKB does waaay to little damage pr. hit ingame atm, the base figure being around 70 dmg, where'as SMG's & Pistols do 50 dmg pr. shot, and rifles do 110 dmg. This again is pretty ridiculous considering how powerful the 7.92 Kurz round actually is, generating an amount of energy nearly four times that of a pistol round, which it carries for longer as-well thanks to a higher ballistic coefficient. In short the 7.92 Kurz should do atleast 90 dmg pr. shot, ensuring a shot anywhere to the upper chest by this round instantly puts someone out of the fight, cause it sure will in reality.
.

I think the MKB needs a laser guided rocket attachment, I am frankly astounded that TWI didn't include that in game. I mean Germans only win most of the time when there a lot of MKB's around...that needs to be always. I for one am not happy!

serious note: No, the MKB is just fine. I know it's an 8mm bullet, but the 8x33 only develops 1,909 J, while standard 8mm mauser (1934 specs) develops 3,697 J of energy. the ratio of 3,697/1909 is 1.94 (rounded) so that's telling there. Dividing 110/70= 1.57. So i wouls say the devs have already been generous to 8mm kurz, or just nerfed rifle rounds

 

[Jippofin]

If you want to count it like that, compared to 7.92 Mauser round 7,62 Tokarev has 700J energy (ratio 0,19) and 9x19 round 600J (ratio 0,16). That would give 21dmg and 17,5dmg for the pistol rounds respectively.

7.92x33 is very close to the AK-47 7.62x39 round. And such intermediate rifle rounds, especially with FMJ ammunition, are very close to full power rifle cartridges as far terminal effects are considered. Both full power and intermediate rounds zip through human body without giving their full energy in to the target. They do much more harm than a normal pistol round due to their velocity, but there isn't that much to distinguish them from each other.

Just saying.... (don't play Mkb at all)

 

[Colt .45 killer]

rifle rounds are wimp compared to what they could be, and killing power is not just joules of energy..

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

If you want to count it like that, compared to 7.92 Mauser round 7,62 Tokarev has 700J energy (ratio 0,19) and 9x19 round 600J (ratio 0,16). That would give 21dmg and 17,5dmg for the pistol rounds respectively.

7.92x33 is very close to the AK-47 7.62x39 round. And such intermediate rifle rounds, especially with FMJ ammunition, are very close to full power rifle cartridges as far terminal effects are considered. Both full power and intermediate rounds zip through human body without giving their full energy in to the target. They do much more harm than a normal pistol round due to their velocity, but there isn't that much to distinguish them from each other.

Just saying.... (don't play Mkb at all)

Not much can be added to this post, it's spot on.

A comparison between the 7.92 Kurz (StG) and the 7.62 M43 (AK):

7.92x33mm Kurz m.E.
Bullet caliber: 8.2mm
Bullet weight: 8.1 gram
Bullet BC: .285 G1
Muzzle velocity: 685 m/s
Kinetic energy: 1900 Joules

7.62x39mm M43
Bullet caliber: 7.9mm
Bullet weight: 8 gram
Bullet BC: .301
Muzzle velocity: 732 m/s
Kinetic energy: 2143 Joules

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Yep, on a note about the 7.62 tokarev round, I watched some YT videos of pistols vs a kevlar helmet. Failed penetration on 9mm, 45acp, 44 mag. 7.62x25 went through both sides.

The 7.62 Tokarev is very good at penetrating stuff at point blank ranges, but once you move past 50 m it starts lacking behind the 9mm Para thanks to lower BC of the much lighter 7.62mm bullet. For this reason the Russian military switched over to overpressure +p+ 9mm Para to be able to better deal with body armor, seeing as the 7.62 Tokarev was found lacking at ranges beyond 50 m.

Lead core vs lead core though and the 7.62 Tokarev will penetrate up to 30% more material than the 9mm Para at point blank range and still stay ahead up to ~50 m, at which point they square off and the 9mm Para slowly begins edging ahead in terms of penetration. As for steel cored ammunition the 9mm Para penetrates slightly more at point blank, but again the real difference only shows itself past 50 m where the 9mm Para by then is far ahead.

 

[gimpy117]

If you want to count it like that, compared to 7.92 Mauser round 7,62 Tokarev has 700J energy (ratio 0,19) and 9x19 round 600J (ratio 0,16). That would give 21dmg and 17,5dmg for the pistol rounds respectively.

7.92x33 is very close to the AK-47 7.62x39 round. And such intermediate rifle rounds, especially with FMJ ammunition, are very close to full power rifle cartridges as far terminal effects are considered. Both full power and intermediate rounds zip through human body without giving their full energy in to the target. They do much more harm than a normal pistol round due to their velocity, but there isn't that much to distinguish them from each other.

Just saying.... (don't play Mkb at all)

but we aren't talking totally about killing power, w are talking about penetration on solid targets as well. At the end of the day, a full rifle round is Oodles more powerful than an assault rifle cartage, be it when going through a wall, or a person. There is a reason why nobody hunts deer or larger game with 7.62x39...it's harder to drop an animal (or person) in one shot with an assault rifle round. So no, personally I don't buy it when a bullet, with the same size with less powder is billed t be just as powerful...the facts just don't add up. It's like coming to the track with a car that weighs the same with less horsepower and expecting to blow the doors off the other guy. Just doesn't happen. Rifles should do much more damage than 8mm kurz.

as to terminal ballistics, there is a reason why dragonov sniper rifles were never chambered for the 7.62x39 cartage (similar to 8mm kurz) less power, less range. maybe 8mm kurz has the same "terminal ballistics" at a shorter range, but a full rifle round regardless of this is going to pack more punch at any given range when paired up.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

but we aren't talking totally about killing power, w are talking about penetration on solid targets as well. At the end of the day, a full rifle round is Oodles more powerful than an assault rifle cartage, be it when going through a wall, or a person. There is a reason why nobody hunts deer or larger game with 7.62x39...it's harder to drop an animal (or person) in one shot with an assault rifle round. So no, personally I don't buy it when a bullet, with the same size with less powder is billed t be just as powerful...the facts just don't add up. It's like coming to the track with a car that weighs the same with less horsepower and expecting to blow the doors off the other guy. Just doesn't happen. Rifles should do much more damage than 8mm kurz.

as to terminal ballistics, there is a reason why dragonov sniper rifles were never chambered for the 7.62x39 cartage (similar to 8mm kurz) less power, less range. maybe 8mm kurz has the same "terminal ballistics" at a shorter range, but a full rifle round regardless of this is going to pack more punch at any given range when paired up.

The reason most hunters don't go with a 7.62x39 (some do) is more likely because of the shorter effective range and longer flight time of such a round as compared to a full powered rifle round. If there's something hunters don't like it's having a round that demands a lot of lead on a running deer or is too affected by crosswinds at 200 m to be relied upon in adverse weather.

But if you manage to hit a deer with a 7.62x39 it will certainly be effective, esp. if you use it with the same type of bullets you go hunting with, such as hollow tips or soft points.

Anyhow, it is absolutely ludicrous that the 7.92mm Kurz only does 70 dmg pr. shot ingame when pistol rounds do 50 dmg pr. shot. The 7.92mm Kurz should atleast do 80-90 dmg, whilst the full powered rifle rounds do 110 dmg pr. shot.

So this is not a matter of wanting the 7.92 Kurz to do the same amount of dmg as the full powered rifle rounds, but close to it, just as it is in reality.

If you want to count by energy alone, both the 7.62 Tokarev & 9mm Para produce ~550 Joules, where'as the 7.92 Kurz is nearly four times more powerful at 1900 Joules.

 

[Jippofin]

but we aren't talking totally about killing power, w are talking about penetration on solid targets as well. At the end of the day, a full rifle round is Oodles more powerful than an assault rifle cartage, be it when going through a wall, or a person. There is a reason why nobody hunts deer or larger game with 7.62x39...it's harder to drop an animal (or person) in one shot with an assault rifle round. So no, personally I don't buy it when a bullet, with the same size with less powder is billed t be just as powerful...the facts just don't add up. It's like coming to the track with a car that weighs the same with less horsepower and expecting to blow the doors off the other guy. Just doesn't happen. Rifles should do much more damage than 8mm kurz.

as to terminal ballistics, there is a reason why dragonov sniper rifles were never chambered for the 7.62x39 cartage (similar to 8mm kurz) less power, less range. maybe 8mm kurz has the same "terminal ballistics" at a shorter range, but a full rifle round regardless of this is going to pack more punch at any given range when paired up.

The reason why excess power is not useful is because we are thin compared to elk and when hunting humans only FMJ bullets are allowed. Only the amount of energy that can be transferred to work on the target matters. Hunters shoot big animals with expanding bullets that deliver the energy better. Btw. I believe a lot of deer has been shot with .30-30 which is very similar to the mentioned cartridge.

Why Dragunov is not 7.62x39? Because it has a rainbow like trajectory beyond 300m requiring very accurate range estimation to be effective on pinpoint targets (it is designed as a short range cartridge). Dragunov should be effective to 600m, and 7.62x54r has heavier bullet with better BC and more speed which enable flatter trajectory.

 

[gimpy117]

i would only accept it if full powered rifles were bumped to 130, and kurz was at 90. but I think it should, and will stay where it is. because one shot to the chest can already kill you, and it's full auto. I feel that yada yada over penetration it STILL should not be 90 damage with a full rifle round only 20 more damage. it doesn't reflect the 95% more power of the full rifle round. Making the MKB do 90 damage would take an already comically unbalanced and make it a total joke, and then maybe I'll expect to see the laser guided missiles for the Germans if that happens.

and elk? what are you hunting? I guess we could compare humans to buffalo, and I could bring out my .45-70 I'm talking deer. in many states .223 is the bare minimum for deer hunting.

 

[Jippofin]

Well if the pistol rounds are at 50 the rifle rounds probably should be at 100-140 class. Then it would reflect reality.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I'd find the following figures realistic:

Full powered rifle rounds (7.92x57, 7.62x54 etc): 110-120 dmg
Intermediate rifle rounds (7.92x33 Kurz etc): 90 dmg
Pistol rounds (9x19, 7.62x25 etc): 50 dmg

 

[slyder73]

Lol the funniest thing to do is watch some guy take cover behind a brick wall. then spay your entire ppsh mag at the 12inch thich wall and watch him just slump out of cover dead.

i can just imagine his rage lmao.

I havent played since that massive patch as its killed my performance but before that, i just gave up and started exploiting everything this didnt have tied down. I was one of those mkb42 whores; i just did not give a s*** anymore...

LOL, what??
How many brick walls do you know that are 12 inches thick? Certainly none in game and certainly none I have come across in real life.
Have you ever taken bricks or even large cinder blocks out to the range to shoot? Get some surplus full metal jacket bullets and fire at them. You will notice they don't stop the bullet. Rifle bullets anyway, a group of pistol shots will bore a hole.

But since you already don't give a "s***" anymore, why are you posting here now? We're probably better off without you.

 

[FBOTheLiuetenant]

Actually a brick wall will stop a 5.56 round at a 45 degree angle. A single brick or cinder block is not anywhere near as strong as a wall of them held together by mortar. That doesn't mean much for RO2 though, all the rounds are either full size rifle rounds or pistol rounds, even the Kurz should be able to go through a brick wall.

As far as RO2 is concerned penetration is perfect when it works perfectly, there are times though when pistol rounds go through too much.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Actually a brick wall will stop a 5.56 round at a 45 degree angle. A single brick or cinder block is not anywhere near as strong as a wall of them held together by mortar. That doesn't mean much for RO2 though, all the rounds are either full size rifle rounds or pistol rounds, even the Kurz should be able to go through a brick wall.

As far as RO2 is concerned penetration is perfect when it works perfectly, there are times though when pistol rounds go through too much.

Like the full powered rifle rounds the 7.92 Kurz will penetrate a layer of brick quite effortlessly out to 300 m, whilst pistol rounds will fail to penetrate a single layer of brick even at point blank range, unless it's steel cored ammunition.

What we're seeing ingame atm is pistol rounds penetrating not one, but two layers of std. european brick, mortar and all, with no problems what'so'ever. I even managed to penetrate the thick interior walls of the station building on the map Station with the MP40, and it's alteast 25 cm thick.

So clearly something is terribly wrong with the penetration system ingame atm.

 

[FBOTheLiuetenant]

Oh I totally agree with you, there are issues with pistol rounds penetrating too much. Perfect example is walls that have two textures on them. One texture is an interior wall, and the other is brick. Such walls are easily penetrated through the plaster side while the brick side is inpenetrable by pistol rounds. I remember that it was said that the thickness of a wall, the material variables that are attached to the texture, and the round fired are all factors in penetration.

 

[Kukki]

Last time i played on Grain Elevator i saw MP40 penetrate multiple times thick, concreate wall. Something must be wrong. THis could explain why i sometimes have problems with penetrating wooden fences on spartanovka with a rifle. Sometimes...

 

[Temporary]

I'm not an expert on WW2 ammunition but I remember reading that the quality of the ammunition changed during the war, so I don't think you can 100% compare the ballistics of a MP40 made in 90s/00s with bullets made in the USA in 90s/00s, with the MP40 and ammunitions used in the Battle of Stalingrad.

Scarcity of high-quality metals, high-quality factories and weak/damaged supply lines were a problem for both side (at different moment of the war), so we might need to tone down it a little (for the sake of gameplay balancing AND being historically credible/accurate).

---

Btw, cartridge/caliber is only one data, muzzle velocity is an important factor too (this is where MG/rifle show a big difference with SMG), then there's the type of core, shape, etc. It's much more complex than one might think.


Wikipedia (I know, I know ) English says about muzzle velocity :

DP-28 : 840 m/s
Mosin Nagant : 800 m/s
PPSh : 488 m/s

MG34 : 755 m/s
Kar98 : 760 m/s
MP40 : 380 m/s
Sgt44 (not so far from the Mkb42 ?) : 785 m/s

Along with real-life datas and historical datas (they tested the weapons and bullets before and during productions), muzzle velocity could prove useful when determining the bullet penetration ingame (so we won't get SMG players spraying walls at 150 meters and still clear the entire building with one clip.

---

Btw, when a bullet go through a wall ingame :

- does it lose its velocity => does the bullet drop increase ?

=> does the damage the bullet will deal decrease ?
Because there's a difference between a bullet going through a body at full speed, piercing all organs and breaking bones, and a bullet barely penetrating a body, stopping in a muscle/organ or ricocheting outside thanks to bones

- does it change its trajectory ?

If not, something is wrong with bullet penetration, Stalingrad walls are not made of paper.

---

We need the SDK to open the official vanilla maps, to check the bullet penetration data of all obstacles, as there's a lot of inconsistency in most maps (sandbags not stopping MP40 bullets at 150 meters, thin walls stopping 50 bullets of MG34 from 60 meters).

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

When talking about penetration performance it is the weight, consistency, shape & velocity of the projectile that matters, and not just velocity alone.

The 7.92x57mm round for example on average fires a heavy 12.8 gram FMJBT projectile at 760 m/s, whilst the 7.62x54mmR fires a much lighter 9.5 gram FMJ projectile at 860 m/s.

Scarcity of high-quality metals, high-quality factories and weak/damaged supply lines were a problem for both side (at different moment of the war), so we might need to tone down it a little (for the sake of gameplay balancing AND being historically credible/accurate).

Not really. The Germans didn't stop producing ammunition to very high quality standards even as late as 1945.

Also whilst German industry was being pounded pretty hard from late 43 onwards, the munition plants still upheld the high quality standards, mainly because of the high quality machinery used in production, but also due to the fact that it was Germany's fuel industry which took the brunt of the pounding.

As for material shortages for production of munitions, besides from tungsten there was no shortages until late 43 when the Germans started saving abit on brass, cobber & lead so as not enter a shortage.

Anyway, I have some 1943 dated Patr.08 ammunition at hand, and it is of the same quality as the std. commercial stuff today, in short it performs as promised even today some 60+ years after. And some of the 7.92 sS ammunition I have is of prestine quality, bordering on if not actually match grade.

 

[The_Cook]

I'm not an expert on WW2 ammunition but I remember reading that the quality of the ammunition changed during the war, so I don't think you can 100% compare the ballistics of a MP40 made in 90s/00s with bullets made in the USA in 90s/00s, with the MP40 and ammunitions used in the Battle of Stalingrad.

Scarcity of high-quality metals, high-quality factories and weak/damaged supply lines were a problem for both side (at different moment of the war), so we might need to tone down it a little (for the sake of gameplay balancing AND being historically credible/accurate).

---

Btw, cartridge/caliber is only one data, muzzle velocity is an important factor too (this is where MG/rifle show a big difference with SMG), then there's the type of core, shape, etc. It's much more complex than one might think.


Wikipedia (I know, I know ) English says about muzzle velocity :

DP-28 : 840 m/s
Mosin Nagant : 800 m/s
PPSh : 488 m/s

MG34 : 755 m/s
Kar98 : 760 m/s
MP40 : 380 m/s
Sgt44 (not so far from the Mkb42 ?) : 785 m/s

Along with real-life datas and historical datas (they tested the weapons and bullets before and during productions), muzzle velocity could prove useful when determining the bullet penetration ingame (so we won't get SMG players spraying walls at 150 meters and still clear the entire building with one clip.

---

Btw, when a bullet go through a wall ingame :

- does it lose its velocity => does the bullet drop increase ?

=> does the damage the bullet will deal decrease ?
Because there's a difference between a bullet going through a body at full speed, piercing all organs and breaking bones, and a bullet barely penetrating a body, stopping in a muscle/organ or ricocheting outside thanks to bones

- does it change its trajectory ?

If not, something is wrong with bullet penetration, Stalingrad walls are not made of paper.

---

We need the SDK to open the official vanilla maps, to check the bullet penetration data of all obstacles, as there's a lot of inconsistency in most maps (sandbags not stopping MP40 bullets at 150 meters, thin walls stopping 50 bullets of MG34 from 60 meters).

For game purposes we assume best made ammo. otherwise we would have to deal with hangfires, duds, stovepipes etc. initial velocity without bullet weight and shape means nothing. round ball ammo of smgs and pistols won't penetrate as well as rifle/assault with heavier and pointy tipped bullets.

depending on the construction of the bullet and the material it is penetrating all your questions are a yes. Not only that they will shed weight depending on if the bullet franges as it goes through. Personally we don't need to bog the servers down because we want get into the nitty gritty. Lets just say Tripwire needs to fix up the basic penetration that they have now and get it back into the ballpark.

 

[Knochensack]

I'm happy with the bullet penetration ingame. What we need is the "weapon shot out of hands" feature. That would give an extra kick. But sometimes the penetration goes to far imho. Mp40 against heavy green wall on grain elevator from 50m? I know the 9mm caliber very well. Sometimes it happens also, that I was able to shoot an enemy on fallen fighters through the big light grey statue in the middle of the map. I mean through it, k?