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Maybe a more positive view.

Forum Police (aka Cpt Praxius):
I already told you i have no problem seeing the muzzle flash in RO. Are you illiterate?
Might as well be since you're not comprehending that sentence.
You can go about your flaming every post that's negative towards RO2. I'm sure either some one or I will be there to flame back.

Griefer,
Read what I typed above. I don't need to play RO2 regularly to be able to see the muzzle flash. I have no option to position myself when I spawn and that was where I got killed.
Have fun intentionally TKing people for your own amusement.
I guess you've played so much to be able to learn how to TK for fun. Good for you.
 
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Forum Police (aka Cpt Praxius):
I already told you i have no problem seeing the muzzle flash in RO. Are you illiterate?
Might as well be since you're not comprehending that sentence.
You can go about your flaming every post that's negative towards RO2. I'm sure either some one or I will be there to flame back.

Griefer,
Read what I typed above. I don't need to play RO2 regularly to be able to see the muzzle flash. I have no option to position myself when I spawn and that was where I got killed.
Have fun intentionally TKing people for your own amusement.
I guess you've played so much to be able to learn how to TK for fun. Good for you.

Name calling. Yeah, that's really going to convince other people that you are right.
 
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Forum Police (aka Cpt Praxius):
I already told you i have no problem seeing the muzzle flash in RO. Are you illiterate?

Nope.... you clearly are though, as I already said that if you can see the muzzle flash in RO1 (an acknowledgement that you see them in RO1, DERP) Then I don't see why you can't see the muzzle flashes in RO2, as they're far more visible than what exists in RO1.

And if I was the "Forum Police" things certainly would be different around here..... I'm just another member like everybody else.

Might as well be since you're not comprehending that sentence.

Again.... learn to read what is posted.

You can go about your flaming every post that's negative towards RO2. I'm sure either some one or I will be there to flame back.

I think you need a hug.

Griefer,
Read what I typed above. I don't need to play RO2 regularly to be able to see the muzzle flash.

I never said you did.... all you need to do is join one game and look in the distance towards where the enemy is shooting from and you can clearly see them. It's not some magical effect that only appears to players who played for a specific period of time. :rolleyes:

I have no option to position myself when I spawn and that was where I got killed.

So now you're changing the topic from Muzzle Flashes to being killed in Spawn?

Have fun intentionally TKing people for your own amusement.

And now you shift the topic to TK'ing? Seriously, what are you going on about?

I guess you've played so much to be able to learn how to TK for fun. Good for you.

:confused: You're a strange fellow..... moving on now....
 
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Griefer,
Read what I typed above. I don't need to play RO2 regularly to be able to see the muzzle flash. I have no option to position myself when I spawn and that was where I got killed.
Have fun intentionally TKing people for your own amusement.
I guess you've played so much to be able to learn how to TK for fun. Good for you.

Then it's pretty weird that you would miss an obvious feature that anyone with a modicum of observational skills would see. I only suggest that you play more to see it in order for you to learn that 'repeat exposure equates to gradual recognition'.

And of course I have fun intentionally TKing, yesterday as commander I force respawned just so I could TK someone. On average you have three tries to make a specific person get annoyed WITHOUT destroying the overall fabric of your team and win the match. It's an art form, good sir, an art form.
 
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Play to 50+ Honour with a couple of weapons up to 'Select Grade', then reset yourself back to 0, and then realise how wrong you are.
Have you ever tried to pick up different weapons you have no levels in or play a class that has zero levels and zero weapon levels? It's a massive difference compared to something that is level 3/weapon 50.
As a matter of fact, I have actually done that. Hell, everyone did that after the stat reset. It's not that big of a difference:
RO2 max level performance testing - YouTube
RO2 min level performance testing - YouTube

You get 1.5 seconds more sprint that gains you maybe 3-4 meters of extra distance. The level 4 squadleader is probably carrying more weight than the level 1, as I was expecting a tad more distance gained.

As for bolting & reload speed, there's a 3 second time difference to go through 15 rounds on the Mosin-Nagant. That's 3 seconds out of 20 base, so fairly minor to begin with and utterly negligible in a real scenario where you're spending at least some quantity of time actually aiming at things instead of just ripping off shots from the hip.

The recoil control is at least a noticeable difference. The PPSh has a decent amount less vertical kick at 50 than 0, resulting in a final aim point about 70% of the fully-zoomed FOV lower. However, even at level 50, there's still more than enough recoil that you need to pull the mouse down to keep on target, so the only practical distinction between the two is how much you need to pull, and that's with what's one of the highest recoil weapon in the game. The difference might be a bigger deal on the MKb, since that actually has a hefty amount of horizontal kick, but someone else would have to test that; mine's just at level 1.

The stat boosts don't turn players into
 
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That's what I really was looking for - recoil control, etc. I can tell there's a rather large gap when I use my maxed out kar as opposed to using a kar with a scope on it. The sway is different. It's just as bad when I swap from kar to a nagant.

The other stats aren't ubermensch, fine, I can agree with that but I do believe that there should be a second look at recoil, sway, whatever stats because even given smart positioning that is still a rather large advantage.

Things like more stamina or what not are fine since they barely contribute unless we started adding things like 'more sway when fatigued!' then it would really matter but now I don't think it's a significant problem (but is it a problem is a question best left to the community/devs) and I believe that goes to the treadmill thread that's somewhere around here.
 
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Doh, right, I forgot to test sway. Anecdotally, I didn't notice a big difference when I decided to try out the German side and went from a level 50 MN to a level 8-ish K98, but if I'm making long range shots, I heavily use the few seconds of sway reduction you get from the breath holding, so I probably wouldn't have even seen the difference anyway. The only time I've really been bothered by sway in RO2 is when firing at zero stamina, and I still get that with the level 50 bolts. I do notice a difference going from the normal bolts to the scoped ones, but that's not apples to apples. The scope is magnifying the visual effect of the sway and I wouldn't be surprised if they just plain have a higher base sway value to them as well. The scope also kills my framerate so that's not helping either. :D

On a related note, the bolts level up super fast. My K98 went from 20 to 50 in one night. Even with a giant gain from stats, it wouldn't take too long for a new player to be competitive with them. It's nowhere near as ridiculous as, say, the 6500 kills needed for the handguns (or AT rifle...snort)
 
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Mekhazzio,

You're friggin' blind right? Have you ever tried to pick up different weapons you have no levels in or play a class that has zero levels and zero weapon levels? It's a massive difference compared to something that is level 3/weapon 50.

Praxius,

I am pretty sure you've figured this out by now but Nazarov has only one view point and will not compromise on it.

Nazarov,

You're blind, you do need your eyes checked or your game system checked because muzzle flashes are everywhere. If the enemy is bad at hitting you, usually by the second or third shot, you can figure out where they are assuming you positioned yourself in a decent manner. You barely play the damn game so you wouldn't know to begin with that's all you're proving.
Limz,

Stop making sense, thats illegal. Do it again and I'll report you to the admins.

Still, TK bad, TK very bad.

Sarcastic remarks. Yeah that's really going to convince me to think that I'm wrong.
I think what he's trying to say is you need to CTFD.
 
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Level 50 Kar with 0 stamina (exhausted state) vs level 1 Kar with 0 stamina (exhausted state) ;P

I am sure you're going to get some HILARIOUS results without using Shift/Zoom.
For science!

RO2 exhausted sway test - YouTube

I actually started this test with the Mosin-Nagant, took several clips, went to encode them, and then had to go back and redo it with the Kar98. I couldn't tell which of the MN clips were level 50 and which were level 0, because there is a LOT of randomness to the sway to begin with. Without changing anything at all, there's a huge amount of variation from one trial to the next, and that makes it hard to tell how much of a difference the stat boost is even making. It's just eclipsed by the massive variation that's already there.
 
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Actually you can see the test results pretty clearly, since you're aiming at the same block but we probably need more sample sizes and I am too lazy to do it ;P but in that clip you can kind of see that the unleveled kar sways a lot more left and right - towards the end of the clip you can see it nearly touching the corner of the building where as the level 50 kar still a half centimeter of screen space (or whatever) before it touches the corner.

So when it comes to ranges such as 150(?)m+ it starts becoming a massive hindrance.
 
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Yeah, I tried to select the clips that seemed decently representative of the two. You can see a difference, but what's not shown there are the times the level 50 sways worse than the level 0 does in that clip, and vice-versa where the level 0 sways less than the 50 did. It'd take a pretty large sample size to get a good feel for the averages, or digging in with the SDK to see what the randomization value is versus the base. My gut estimate right now is that the RNG is much larger factor than the level difference when it comes to trying to land a shot in those circumstances

It's kind of a moot point in the end though, since it's part of the player's job to avoid a situation where you're taking long range shots when you're out of stamina, unbraced and can't use the breath holding.
 
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The advantages of perma-stat boosts are clear. (Granted, not all of the stats amount to a hill of beans, but others do.) I didn't video my switch from Hero to Zero (kudos for bothering to do that, BTW) but when my stats dropped from 89 back to 0/10 all of a sudden I couldn't hit for sh_t. It took a game or two to re-adjust to the lost stats but I'd say the 30% boosts in areas like Sway and reload times do equate to 10-20% more points than at zero level (game-wisdom being equal at both levels as it was an overnight switch). Of course stat boosts will not make you
 
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Yeah, I tried to select the clips that seemed decently representative of the two. You can see a difference, but what's not shown there are the times the level 50 sways worse than the level 0 does in that clip, and vice-versa where the level 0 sways less than the 50 did. It'd take a pretty large sample size to get a good feel for the averages, or digging in with the SDK to see what the randomization value is versus the base. My gut estimate right now is that the RNG is much larger factor than the level difference when it comes to trying to land a shot in those circumstances

It's kind of a moot point in the end though, since it's part of the player's job to avoid a situation where you're taking long range shots when you're out of stamina, unbraced and can't use the breath holding.

I disagree with that completely speaking from the context of what we're given. The game is high paced and highly lethal in terms of damage. This means every second counts and if we're penalizing (yes it's a loaded term) players for not playing as much when they need that one second, and they don't get it because of the way stats work then I think there is a problem.

If this game was slower pace and had less damage on all weapons then you know what, I could agree with you to an extent because a player could be forgiven for missing a shot he otherwise would have gotten had he been 50 etc.

Defektive also makes a good point but let me rehash it in a different way. A level 50 player with level 50 weapons will have often 23% better control of sway, better reload, etc. Those are statistically relevant numbers and if you're asking for fair play then it behooves you to recognize that there is something off here. If you then look across whole teams you may have a team that is 90% efficient versus another that is 95% just based on the stats alone. Think also from the commander's perspective in pubs (though .. it's a pub!) do I really want to lead a team half of which may have under-leveled weapons? Do I want to trust them to cover me (if they even bother to?) Then think of how many misses (barring hit reg) was due to sway?

I do not believe, Mek, that you can dismiss this argument easily without having to data mine statistics but I have a feeling that if you started to alter the stats such as reducing them more and more you'll see that player performance will correspond.

The game needs to offer parity to players not disparity if possible; we can find ways to reward them for their dedication elsewhere.
 
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Those are statistically relevant numbers and if you're asking for fair play then it behooves you to recognize that there is something off here. If you then look across whole teams you may have a team that is 90% efficient versus another that is 95% just based on the stats alone. Think also from the commander's perspective in pubs (though .. it's a pub!) do I really want to lead a team half of which may have under-leveled weapons? Do I want to trust them to cover me (if they even bother to?) Then think of how many misses (barring hit reg) was due to sway?
On a theoretical level, yeah, obviously any sort of advantage, no matter how minor, is going to be an advantage, and there will be the potential for it to change outcomes in at least some number of cases. I don't disagree with that premise. I just think that, with the way it's implemented and with the way RO2 usually plays, the scope of those altered outcomes is severely limited, as the stats that are boosted are limited in what they can effect.

Probably the single biggest gameplay theme of tactical shooters in general is setting up scenarios such that your enemies don't even get a fair chance. Through positioning, teamwork, surprise, preparation, what have you, your ideal outcome is to not even give the enemy a chance to effectively counterattack at all. When it comes down to who out-aims who or similar twitch events, both players have fundamentally failed already, in that they've given the enemy an avoidable opportunity to win. There are plenty of shooter games that focus entirely on that part of gameplay and make a fine game out of it (I do loves me a good Descent/Quake 3/TF2 style game) but RO2 is not one of those games.

If you were to compile data on every kill made in RO2, I'd bet a large majority never even see it coming. A majority of the ones that do see it coming didn't have anything resembling a fair chance to fight back. A significant portion of even the fair fights are heavily influenced by random chance, be it who gets the next server physics frame closer to their action, who gets the better recoil, who has the better ping / framerate, you name it. The stat boosts can, in the rare case that all other factors are equal, influence those fights, but the amount they affect them is dwarfed by the amount of randomness already involved. It's very hard to point to any particular scenario, even if you examine it carefully frame-by-frame, and state with certainty that the outcome was due to one person's higher stats. To even get to that point of examination, you're taking a subset of a subset of a subset of game events. They're often the most tense events, and so tend to stand out beyond their significance, but they're still only a small part of the game in the wide view. A new player especially is going to have a hard time just getting past the "oblivious target" phase in the first place, by the time he's progressed enough that stats begin to matter, he'll have accrued a fair amount of his own.

So, while it is, of course, a statistical inevitability that some outcomes are changed by the stat system, I don't think it is a common enough event to affect the metagame, and so I don't think RO2 deserves the flak that your typical rank boost system merits. That's really all I'm arguing for here, RO2's implementation in the specific rather than the concept as a whole.

Anyway, yeah, defektive has hit the nail on the head in the general sense. A stat system either causes issues with fairness, or it winds up being essentially pointless and the question arises, why bother? The cynical answer to that is that monkeys love a Skinner box :D Look at the massive traffic the forum had over the bugged stats on release, and how you occasionally still find someone grumbling about the reset. It doesn't matter if the numbers actually do anything, as long as there's numbers to increment to get a new shiny: ooo, shiny!
 
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