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When will there be a hardcore mode?

I remember reading some stats on the average "officer involved" shooting incident in New York city in the 1990s.

It was usually in the dark
It was at an average range of 8 feet
both participants had usually been running,
the average non-officer managed to hit with one round in ten.
The average officer managed to hit with one round in four (this was attributed to the effects of training).

Now, admittedly this was probably with pistols, but I really wouldn't have a problem with two guys who'd been running flat out up stairs huffing and puffing, blazing away and missing a lot.


Again, this is a nice statistic for a real life fire fight, but it has nothing to do with gaming. You also create a huge demand to camp when you make a character that can't go 10 feet without needing to rest.

For a game to be playable and fun you have to curb the use of real world statistics. You have to make a game
with some action and not all realism.

Most of us want to get in game and shoot at the enemy. We hope we shoot more of them than us.

At what point does the realism stop in a game?

-Player must stop and eat.
-Player must stop to use restroom.
-Player must put on clothes.
-Player must shower.
-Player must brush teeth.

I remember that game, it's called The Sims.
 
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Again, this is a nice statistic for a real life fire fight, but it has nothing to do with gaming.

WTF? You think fat old officer plod is a real life example of trained soldiers?

As if.

In basic training I had to run 9KM with a full pack and webbing weighing about 50kg, then climb a 5m rope, jump a 2m ditch and THEN score 50% on a 50m target to qualify as combat effective.

Officer plod would have had a heart attack half way through the run. Have you never watched cops?
 
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Yes ARMA & RO1 share the 'clunky as F***" movement and controls but only because nothing better could be done (atleast for RO1) and this servers the purpose of slowing people down and forcing them to play tactically.

So they are unrealistic which forces a certain type of play... and that makes them more realistic?

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

The only reason you camp and snipers in RO1 weren't getting killed as easily as you are now is because the game was unrealistic. You simply refuse to even consider the unrealistic things that kept you alive. They don't even count as "unrealistic" in your mind because they help you.

To you, and people like you something is realistic if it means you can kill easier, and unrealistic if it means you die easier. Why? Because you have no idea how to prevent yourself from getting killed without the help of the game developers.

To you, survival is impossible unless the rules are set in your favour. So of course those rules are "realistic". :rolleyes:
 
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you want RO1? then go play RO1.

RO1 was realistic like COD or CS are realistic, SMG's recoil was absurd and it made them useless, soldiers were slow like friggin turtles,being shot made you get stuck in an invisble wall in the middle of the map.moreover most of the maps were like this:run run run run and die by a bloody camper.

you want all that AGAIN?

stop trolling please, RO2 is MUCH more realistic then RO1 and much more fun.

i'm not having as much as as i did in ro 1. bugs and frames aside, this game doesn't feel as great as when i first played ro 1 a few years ago. and i can't really go back, theres nothing to go back to, everyone has either moved on or the servers closed. only decent server is one in europe now with 200+ ping for a 50 slot capacity.

some things are uncontested about being more realistic over the old ro like new MG system, being able to climb over short walls, wall penetration and many more.

things I don't like : zoom, even if they say its more realistic i still don't like the idea that your eyes can zoom like a camera. i rather it be locked so your stuck with that zoom on or take it out.

bandage system is off. get shot like 2 times then shoot the guy as if pain or force didn't knock you off then just bandage it and continue at full speed again.

about sway, i don't know where i stand on this anymore. but people are claiming to be masters of rifle and long experience in the army and say they can do it after running for a long time etc etc etc.

don't know if this is a valid video on this case. people are definitely gonna put it down but here it is.

Mauser K98k ( SS marked) - YouTube

only person with a video i can find where they are standing unsupported shooting at decent range and where you can hear if they hit or not. doesn't say much about sway but it does show that rifles are very accurate. if it doesn't hit the target its the users fault. so even with misses on still targets, can we agree its not as easy as the master riflemans here say it is.

in ro 2, you bring up the sights and your perfectly accurate with zoom+breath and will hit the target almost right after you brought the iron sights up. this guy is taking his time and shooting slowly and still had a miss or 2 for the 200 + yards.
 
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only person with a video i can find where they are standing unsupported shooting at decent range and where you can hear if they hit or not. doesn't say much about sway but it does show that rifles are very accurate. if it doesn't hit the target its the users fault. so even with misses on still targets, can we agree its not as easy as the master riflemans here say it is.

i dont think anyone is gonna argue about how accurate rifles are. I own a yugo m48, and i can say hands down that gun has the potential to clip the wings off a fly.

However its when you delve into nonsensical things such as sprinting 100m (with the gun in one hand mind you), bringing the sights up to your eye in .056 nano seconds, then firing before the but is even rested against your shoulder and then killing some dude 150m away.

Notice before each shot that guy spent a good 1-2 sec bracing/controlling himself? I would have no qualms if RO2 mirrored that.

And dont even get me started on the bandaging/slow death. I blast a grapefruit sized hole in the guy's in the chest or stomach and he doesnt even flinch! He doest exit sprint, He doest trip over himself or even shake his screen. No. Instead he still hase the stamina and accuracy to turn around and spam his ppsh in my direction...
 
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about sway, i don't know where i stand on this anymore. but people are claiming to be masters of rifle and long experience in the army and say they can do it after running for a long time etc etc etc.

The point you are missing is that you are talking about "sway" as if there was such a thing. There isn't. There is the strength to hold the rifle up with the correct support, and then there is misalignment of the sights.

Any movement of the rifle causes misalignment of the sights, including tracking a running target. So, while that run and gunner has less sway and can more easily stop, acquire, and shoot you... you also have less "sway" are in a more stable position and are not moving.

So why did YOU miss HIM?

This is why I laugh at the people complaining about sway. They never complain that the sway makes it too easy for them to kill others, they only complain that it makes it too easy for others to kill them.

When I was in the army, I was taught how to make myself a difficult target to hit. I do all the same things in this game, run right up to that camping rifleman and stick him with the bayonet... and STILL he complains about sway.

It's a ridiculous joke, in my eyes. It makes you look like an idiot when you complain about something that is equal for everyone.

What the real problem is, you got used to being protected by an unrealistic game mechanic. You started to think you were better at this sort of thing than those guys who kept trying to run and gun. Then, when you came to a game that doesn't unfairly favour you... you blame the game.

RO1 was neither realistic or balanced. It was just as unrealistic or unbalanced as CoD. It just did it in a different direction.
 
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However its when you delve into nonsensical things such as sprinting 100m (with the gun in one hand mind you), bringing the sights up to your eye in .056 nano seconds, then firing before the but is even rested against your shoulder and then killing some dude 150m away.

Have you ever tried it?

When I was in training, I never had more than two seconds to see, aim at and shoot a target. I was taught how to do that effectively. It is NOTHING like what you are taught at a civilian rifle range. You are shooting at men, so being precise is unimportant... being FAST is essential.

All you have to do is point the weapon at their belly or hips and pull the trigger. There is no sway, because the second the sights are on target, you fire. You do not stop and try to get the perfect aim, you simply get a good enough aim fast enough and fire before it is no longer good.

It's the same thing as timing your breathing for long shots. You can't stop the up and down movement caused by your breathing unless you hold your breath, or as snipers REALLY do, time it. (Holding your breath increases the heart rate, making precision much more difficlt).

So here in a nutshell is what I was told by my instructors was the best way to shoot a man: Rapidly traverse the sight towards the target and as soon as it touches the point you want to shoot at, you fire. The rifle is moving in one direction only and it doesn't stop moving until the shot is being fired. There is no "sway", because you are not trying to hold it still. It goes to the aim point, then the bullet leaves... then the barrel can sway all over the place and no one cares.

Does that make sense?

And don't even get me started on the bandaging/slow death.
No, you didn't. You THINK you did, but the game detected the hit as being in a non-critical area and decided to let the guy live, rather than kill him in an unrealistic manner.

You also have a magazine and can work the action and fire again almost as fast as a semi. So why did you wait for him to turn and shoot you?

Always confirm the kill. Never stop shooting until they are lying on the ground motionless. That's what I was taught in the army. Why? Because you don't always kill them with one shot, and if they aren't dead they can still kill you.

You are using civilian methods on a battlefield and wondering why they don't work. They don't work in RO2 because they don't work in real life either.

Try and find ANY army manual or guide that says the infantryman should find somewhere to hide and snipe. Try to find one that DOESN'T tell you that constant rapid movement is key to your survival. A civilian instructor will tell you to take your time and get the sight picture perfect, a military instructor will tell you that while you're doing that, the target's mate will be killing you.

You simply do not have the training to comment on what is or is not realistic on a battlefield. It's obvious. The things I am talking about are the things soldiers learned first hand fighting real battles. They took what they learned and turned it into a series of tactics designed to make it harder for the enemy to shoot you, and easier for you to shoot the enemy.

You are a gamer who is talking about things you learned from game programmers, and rely upon regardless of whether they have any basis in reality. The stuff I do works in every game because it's not about the mechanics of the game, it's about the mechanics of the person playing it. I take advantage of THEIR weaknesses, not the game's weaknesses.

That's why you want the game changed to protect you.

-

By the way, do you know what they teach a soldier to do if he comes under fire unexpectedly while moving? The first thing you do is stop and "double tap" the target. THEN you seek cover. That is done for two reasons. First you have been trained to rapidly acquire a target and fire at it, so you might kill the enemy immediately, but the second reason is even if you don't, those two shots will throw off the enemy's aim, and give you the short period of time you need to get out of the line of fire. In fact, if you were moving rapidly, then stopped, the enemy will be leading you and will end up moving the sights off target before he can react to you stopping. Just changing speed or direction can throw off his aim and force him to start the process of calculating lead and drop all over again.

The very thing you complain is unrealistic is EXACTLY what real soldiers are taught to do in that situation.
 
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I will highly disagree with most of you here. RO2 does not need a Hardcore mode. All HC mode was in COD, BF, etc. is lowering the health of the player so they die faster. In RO2 people typically die with 1 shot.

Among other options you want, less running stamina, more sway, etc. There is a major problem with that mentality. It makes the game ridiculous to play. Two guys run into a room facing each other at 10 feet and neither one can aim or get a solid shot off because there is a huge sway and lack of stamina because they are breathing hard.

There is a fine line between realistic and down right bad game play. Remember that in a video game you can only have so much realism and keep it fun for the masses. RO2 serves that purpose well and why mess with a good concept.

All of this realism talk for a video game is a little bit on the crazy side. If you want realism you can do far better on a re-enactment team or paintball or go crazy and join the military.

Maybe a mod for you guys is the answer.

No there isn't.

And please, this ''join the military comments''-like are getting old. We're not talking about the military, we're talking about VIDEOGAMES. Realism in videogames.

Maybe you didn't know, but there is a niche audience that likes games like that and consider it as fun. The orginal RO1 had a lot of good features that were removed in RO2 to make it more accesible for the the mainstream.

And,

there is absolutely NO NEED to make ALL GAMES fun for the masses. Because the masses have HUNDREDS of game to choose from so I don't give a crap about the masses. Look at the niche hardcore audience instead - we got roughly TWO GAMES to choose from - ARMA or RO. Yet you claim that RO should be for the masses aswell. So I don't cry a tear for the masses.
 
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No there isn't.

And please, this ''join the military comments''-like are getting old. We're not talking about the military, we're talking about VIDEOGAMES. Realism in videogames.

Maybe you didn't know, but there is a niche audience that likes games like that and consider it as fun. The orginal RO1 had a lot of good features that were removed in RO2 to make it more accesible for the the mainstream.

And,

there is absolutely NO NEED to make ALL GAMES fun for the masses. Because the masses have HUNDREDS of game to choose from so I don't give a crap about the masses. Look at the niche hardcore audience instead - we got roughly TWO GAMES to choose from - ARMA or RO. Yet you claim that RO should be for the masses aswell. So I don't cry a tear for the masses.

Again, that is why there are mods.
 
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Aim is fine. Running speed could be slower on rough terrain though.
Wounds should have longtime effects also. The amount of smg's doesn't bother me much. I usually play rifleman but I like to pick up one if I find one about.
I think fightin subgunners with my boltrifle makes the game more exciting.

About sway. Really, it is fine. I have handled rifles since I was a kid and sway is incremental. Meaning that you have hardly none first but if you stand up while holding the rifle the sway will increase as you tire and tense up. If anything that could be implemented if you want to go realism nuts.
Also your sight will start blurring if aiming too long. Put that in as well if you want to go overboard. You'll have to lower your gun and and wink a bit before aiming again :D
 
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keep base speed and sprint, but make aiming more diffcuilt when tired

make aiming while standing have much more recoil and sway with ALL weapons


keep supression the same, we dont need super supression mode, thats just not good gameplay

reduce bounciness of grenades off walls

take out zoom completely with smgs, but leave small zoom for rifles and mgs

reduce mg recoil when prone or deployed on wall or window or whatever, especially the dp 28 which is very mediocre weapon for an mg

reduce assault to 1 per squad- take mkb 42 out of game, along with stupid avt-40, If you want to include them, do it only in relaxed realism, they simply werent in stalingrad(especilally the avt-40)

no elite riflemen

squad leaders get semi auto rifles only, no smg

1 sniper per 2 squads

1 mg per 2 squads

commander gets a pistol only, hes a commander, commanders command, that way more semi autos arent spawned, commander can pick up semi auto off corpse like eveyrone else if he wants one

Increase the amount of spawning on squad leader by making default spawn being on the squad leader, and allowing people to spawn on him at any time unless squad leader is inside enemy cap zone

no unlocks, russian assault uses drum mag 72 round, mp 40 has standard 32 stick magazine, its balanced because mp 40 is better weapon with heavier bullet and lower recoil due to lower rate of fire, but ppsh has big mag and high rate of fire, good trade off

both mg34 and dp28 use 50 round mags for balance reasons, no mg34 with 200 round belt clip

disable leveling, everyone has the same exact stats, newbs and pros.
 
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keep base speed and sprint, but make aiming more diffcuilt when tired

It won't make a blind bit of difference. People who are running and gunning do snapshots. They don't try and hold the sight on target, they fire the instant the sight is on target, so sway has no affect.

You are used to stopping, adopting a stable firing position, acquiring a target, refining your aim, countering the sway, and finally firing when everything is perfect. Increasing rifle sway will only hurt YOU, not the run and gunner who never aims at anything long enough for sway to play any part in the subsequent events.

This isn't some fake game mechanic, either, this is what real soldiers are taught to do so that they can be as accurate as needed as quickly as needed. Sway doesn't affect me because I fire the instant the rifle stops moving from my bringing it onto target. The sway mechanic hasn't even started to work at that point.

In the real world "sway" is simply "getting tired". You can hold the weapon perfectly still, you just can't do it for too long before your muscles get tired and less precise making it harder to counter any slight movements.

Sway affects camp and snipers, not run and gunners, in the real world AND the game world.

That's why I know the people who complain about low sway don't really know what they are doing and will therefore suck at the game.
 
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The Kar98 is a heavy gun, whether modified or not.
It's heavy for a gun considering it can weigh up to 4.1kg. Holding that all day will make the weapon sway. Especially when you aren't leaning it on something.

RO2 is nothing like RO1. I think you'll find that we people who want more realism aren't a minority. The last thing I need is someone who hasn't played RO1 to say RO2 is very realistic.

I've played the game since it was a mod. I love RO1, despite its age. But I want RO2 to be a little more realistic. Weapons have recoil funnily enough, and they do sway. Especially the Nagant and the Mauser. Two very old weapons which weigh -alot- more than modern ones. Try sprinting with one then holding it super steady standing up.

A lot of my old RO1 buddies aren't bothering with RO2. It's not what we were fed.

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Is it really that hard for you guys to remain civilised? We're not asking for us to stop and eat, stop and make water or solids.
We're asking it to be a little more like the Red Orchestra we love. The one with weapon sway and tactics just to name a few things.

I didn't make this post so people can flame each other and make mountains out of mole-hills. Pathetic.
 
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The Kar98 is a heavy gun, whether modified or not.
It's heavy for a gun considering it can weigh up to 4.1kg. Holding that all day will make the weapon sway. Especially when you aren't leaning it on something.

4kg ~= 10 lbs.

10 lbs spread over the course of a 3 foot long weapon with three points of contact with your body. It's really not hard to hold the weapon steady mate. It's just not. It's designed to be held steady for long periods of time. That's kind of the whole point. It needs to be accurate, lightweight, and man-portable. If it's too heavy to be fired accurately in an extended firefight, it's not doing it's job.

RO2 is nothing like RO1. I think you'll find that we people who want more realism aren't a minority. The last thing I need is someone who hasn't played RO1 to say RO2 is very realistic.

But I have played RO1, and while it was a lot more realistic for it's time than what was available (having to use cover, weapon bracing, etc. as opposed to the Quake/Counterstrike quickscoping, bunny hopping, etc.) it was still fundamentally unrealistic with it's arcadey mechanics like tons of sway and bullet spread. Real guns and shooters don't behave like that, and it made combat feel awkward and clumsy. Shooting a gun is remarkably easy in real life. I've taught friends of mine (specifically a handful of 4' nothing girls and several guys) who had never held a weapon before in their lives how to shoot properly over the course of an afternoon and by that evening they were capable of putting all their shots on target from 50m. This is not some black art that mankind struggles with. It's actually pretty easy. Try it sometime.

I've played the game since it was a mod. I love RO1, despite its age. But I want RO2 to be a little more realistic. Weapons have recoil funnily enough, and they do sway. Especially the Nagant and the Mauser. Two very old weapons which weigh -alot- more than modern ones. Try sprinting with one then holding it super steady standing up.

Karabiner 98k - 3.7 kg (8.2 lb) - 4.1 kg (9.0 lb)
Mosin-Nagant - 4 kg (8.8 lb) (M91/30)
M16 - 8.79 lb (4.0 kg) (loaded)
AK-47 - 5.21 kg (11.5 lb) with empty magazine

They really don't.

Realistic isn't the term your looking for. Hardcore is more what you want. Despite what games like RO1 and ARMA and America's Army have told you, weapons don't sway all over the place, human beings are remarkably agile (even when carrying 30+ lbs of combat gear), and combat in real life is both fast paced and intense. Hardcore shooters slow things down significantly, and greatly increase the difficulty of accomplishing simple tasks. I'm not really a fan of hardcore shooters, but that's me.

RO2 has it's arcadey elements, sure. It's still a game. But in most respects, it is a -lot- more realistic than RO1 ever was.

A lot of my old RO1 buddies aren't bothering with RO2. It's not what we were fed.

It's a shame you guys won't give it a chance to shine on it's own merits. You try it and proclaim that it's become a dumbed down arcade port for the masses, and I promise you it's not. The mechanics have changed a bit, but at it's core this is still an RO game. The difficulty is punishing, the firefights are lethal, and there's a learning curve like a brick wall to players. Even RO vets have to re-learn the game, and a lot of folks don't like that.

Give the game a proper chance. Forget what you expected the game to be, and try it for what it is. You may find yourself loving it.

Edit:
Is it really that hard for you guys to remain civilised? We're not asking for us to stop and eat, stop and make water or solids.
We're asking it to be a little more like the Red Orchestra we love. The one with weapon sway and tactics just to name a few things.

I didn't make this post so people can flame each other and make mountains out of mole-hills. Pathetic.

It's understandable that a lot of the vets might be a bit peeved that the mechanics have changed as much as they have, and I'm hoping that the modding community can set you guys straight and give you something a little more like what you were expecting. As I said, though, TWI hasn't failed you or sold out. They've beefed up the realism quite a bit, to mixed results to a lot of people. They've taken the difficulty out of certain things (like shooting straight) and this has affected a lot of other things (like the difficulty of staying alive and accomplishing objectives). This game has all the tactical depth of RO1. Even more, I'd say. A lot of the unrealistic tactics you could get away with in RO1 (like crossing an open area in clear view of an enemy from 100m away or hip-firing and killing that SMG guy while he's spraying at you from across the room) are gone. It's a much more lethal, intense depiction of combat. Whether or not you're pleased with that is another story.
 
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Even though I enjoy RO2, I find myself cringing at the weapon loadout screen. 6 MKB's, virtually no one using MP40's, only about 4/5 people using rifles. Its sad really. Then again, the very few problems people are adressing on these forums, like the lack of sway etc, could be easily fixed when modders start messing around with stuff. I guess people who are after true realism (or as close as you can get to it) have something to look forward to.
 
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I'm an avid trap shooter that competes in state tournaments.
Guns sway when you've sprinted. Guns sway more than what is in the game. I'm not asking for RO1 swaying, I'm asking for more.

Karbiners, Mosins, they sway.
An avid trap shooter who competes in state tournaments doesn't know the weight of old nor modern rifles, instead he makes up numbers.
I bet you fought in WWII as well, eh? Maybe the Napoleonic wars?
 
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