MP40....Effective range

[Bowcaster]

after WW2 some british chaps calculated that they spendt thousands of rounds of ammo for every man killed.

I think it was 1 or 2 thousand rounds or something. Not shure though.

In the Vietnam war, they conducted a test after a battle by counting the dead, and the number of shell casings. The rounds/kill ratio was found to be extremely ridiculous. Of course that was Vietnam where automatic weapons were more common, and that caused more spray and pray tactics.

I was able to find this
Enemy Casualties caused by US soldiers
-----------------------------------------------
WW I -- 7,000 rounds/casualty
WW II -- 25,000 rounds/casualty
Korea -- 50,000 rounds/casualty
Vietnam -- 200,000-400,000 rounds/casualty

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?30316-Rounds-per-kill-in-Vietnam/page2 - about half way down the page, post #25.

Pretty interesting. Most people that are not interested in these sort of things don't realize how much lead is put into knocking one tango down. That is of course, including surpressive fire, I'm guessing aimed fire would be a much lower rnd/casualty ratio.

 

[Jorg Biermann1]

Oh look, this thread again.

Haven't we been over this a thousand times already? Aren't you tired yet?

There's nothing wrong with the MP40, it's just your rubbish tactics and play style. If you spent half as much time practicing as you did complaining here on the forums, the MP40 wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Well ok I guess we give up. Let's keep the OP MP40. Who gives a ****? I play as German all the time anyway, So does Wodin so I guess if the German players can't convince to nerf the gun they use to make it more realistic than the Russians will be fine with me sniping it.

 

[Josef Nader]

Well ok I guess we give up. Let's keep the OP MP40. Who gives a ****? I play as German all the time anyway, So does Wodin so I guess if the German players can't convince to nerf the gun they use to make it more realistic than the Russians will be fine with me sniping it.

It's the same 5-10 people making this exact same thread every day or so. You're the only ones complaining about this. I have never had problems with the MP40 being OP, and all the gameplay videos I've seen that show kills over 100m have done it because:

1) The target was running fully upright like an idiot
2) It was a lucky shot after a fair bit of fire saturation.

There is no problem with the MP40 as it is. It's not going to be nerfed. It doesn't NEED to be nerfed. It's a powerful weapon in the way it was designed, and I'm tired of arguing with you chuckleheads. Every time a thread turns against you you just make another one to continue beating the same dead horse over and over again.

Just let it be.

 

[Swinnburnski]

Mp40 Your New Little friend

Mp40 Your New Little friend

This Depends on quite a few things in game WODIN. I say stick with this weapon until you know how it Performs in this game and with your set up. Obvious i know,but who knows for sure until a few months in to the game if all goes well that is, i feel it might just be ok. ....?

 

[p1r0kun]

While I'm no expert, it does seem to me that good use of cover and long rifles can go a long way in mitigating the effectiveness of MP40s. Especially in Spartanovka (I think?) I've used it to great effect- keeping heads down and in many cases killing at distances greater than 100yds. The targets that survived were often: 1.) the ones that stayed behind cover AND MOVED BEHIND IT to negate the effect of any penetration that would have occurred, and 2.) the ones that sprinted perpendicular to my LOS. There were times when I found myself looking around for a long rifle as the MP didn't quite pack the punch that I would've liked. Anyway, I do understand why other german-favoring players would feel this way. It does seem a bit unfair when you start playing with the MP40, but I think it's easily overcome by training with the other weapons and making adjustments in tactics. My two cents.

 

[markopoika]

One thing causing this "sniping" myth is probably that you don't see range where you were killed.

 

[Josef Nader]

Exactly. People are getting killed from "across the map" with MP40s, which seems like an incredible distance in most other FPSs where bull**** accuracy handicaps prevent kills outside of spitting range, but in RO2 it's rarely over 100-150m. Easy range for rifles and MGs, and capable range for SMGs. So getting "sniped across the map" is well within the capabilities of the MP40 IRL.

The problem is the map size limit in Unreal, not the gun.

 

[miniform3]

Exactly. People are getting killed from "across the map" with MP40s, which seems like an incredible distance in most other FPSs where bull**** accuracy handicaps prevent kills outside of spitting range, but in RO2 it's rarely over 100-150m. Easy range for rifles and MGs, and capable range for SMGs. So getting "sniped across the map" is well within the capabilities of the MP40 IRL.

The problem is the map size limit in Unreal, not the gun.

This is perhaps the most accurate (and wonderfully logical) examination of the problem people are complaining about.

As someone who has access to MP40s and PPSHs.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Yep, I have to agree with Josef on this one.

 

[Jorg Biermann1]

The OP also stats that there are too many MP40s. Before Stalingrad MP40s were only given to Platoon or Gruppe leaders and a lot to Fallshirmjager (Which doesn't matter if the game is in Stalingrad).

Therefore the Assault class should either get deleted or be a very low number. Also like I've said a million times the engineer should get a rifle (This is no Company of Heroes).

It was after the failure of Stalingrad that the MP40 was given out more freely.

 

[luciferintears]

There are 3 kinds of effective ranges:

1. Absolute: The point in which the bullet will no longer become lethal (very far), it generally believed to by when the bullets energy reaches about 85joules

2. Point target: the ability to hit a torso sized object 50% of the time

3. Area target: the ability to hit a vehicle sized object 50% of the time

The one that is the most important to us is number 2. Tripwire has not implemented that correctly.

I consistently hit targets well beyond 150m with an mp40

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Like I was saying, I've been pinging metal gongs at 150m with an early MP5 many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that weapon aint much more accurate than an MP40.

 

[Josef Nader]

There are 3 kinds of effective ranges:

1. Absolute: The point in which the bullet will no longer become lethal (very far), it generally believed to by when the bullets energy reaches about 85joules

2. Point target: the ability to hit a torso sized object 50% of the time

3. Area target: the ability to hit a vehicle sized object 50% of the time

The one that is the most important to us is number 2. Tripwire has not implemented that correctly.

I consistently hit targets well beyond 150m with an mp40

And where in the world did you pull this data from? I've never heard this used IRL.

Unless you're shooting in a strong wind, bullets tend to fly in a straight line (minus the bullet drop). So if you shoot a bullet on a clear day at a man sized target, as long as you account for bullet drop it's going to HIT the man-sized target. Whether or not it maintains lethal velocity at the distance in question is another matter.

9mm rounds ARE lethal at 150m. I'm sorry. They are. Less so than a 7.62x39mm, perhaps, but still lethal.

 

[luciferintears]

Like I was saying, I've been pinging metal gongs at 150m with an early MP5 many years ago, and I'm pretty sure that weapon aint much more accurate than an MP40.

chances are it is, though not by much

mp5 has a higher muzzle velocity, a closed bolt system which makes a difference if you firing semi, as well as siphoning gases off more effeciently

And where in the world did you pull this data from? I've never heard this used IRL.

Unless you're shooting in a strong wind, bullets tend to fly in a straight line (minus the bullet drop). So if you shoot a bullet on a clear day at a man sized target, as long as you account for bullet drop it's going to HIT the man-sized target. Whether or not it maintains lethal velocity at the distance in question is another matter.

9mm rounds ARE lethal at 150m. I'm sorry. They are. Less so than a 7.62x39mm, perhaps, but still lethal.

what in f***s name are you talking about? I read your post like 3 times and i still dont know what you're issue is.

you've never heard of point target and area target?

The absolute maximum range is the range in which the bullet shaves off enough kinetic energy to no longer become lethal. But we can ignore this, i just brought it up for educations sake.

As for bullets traveling along a perfect vertical plane, is true; that is if you bolt the gun down. When you fire a gun, your arms are not rock steady, they twitch, your body moves from breathing. There are many other factors as well, such as ambient temperature, rising thermals, the lining of your barrel, the grain/weight of the round.

I remember specifically mentioning that our main concern here is effective point target range, lethality is not an issue in this game; so im not too sure why your fixated on it. I never said 9mm rounds arnt lethal at 150m, so i dont know why you brought this up

EDIT: Here is an article about effective ranges, via 3sec of googling

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

chances are it is, though not by much

Hence why I said that it probably "aint much more accurate than an MP40"

mp5 has a higher muzzle velocity, a closed bolt system which makes a difference if you firing semi, as well as siphoning gases off more effeciently

Well, keep in mind that the MP40 actually has a longer barrel, so muzzle velocities probably aint that different. Add to this the higher weight of the MP40 as-well as the lower ROF, and you've got a slightly more controllable weapon in full auto fire.

I am confident I could produce the same results with an MP40 as I did that day with the MP5.

That having been said the MP5 is naturally a much better SMG, being a lot lighter & more compact, making it a lot more comfortable to carry around, also later designs feature a muzzle brake that decreases recoil by quite abit. Add to this the closed bolt system for increased accuracy.

 

[luciferintears]

Hence why I said that it probably "aint much more accurate than an MP40"



Well, keep in mind that the MP40 actually has a longer barrel, so muzzle velocities probably aint that different. Add to this the higher weight of the MP40 as-well as the lower ROF, and you've got a slightly more controllable weapon in full auto fire.

I am confident I could produce the same results with an MP40 as I did that day with the MP5.

That having been said the MP5 is naturally a much better SMG, being a lot lighter & more compact, making it a lot more comfortable to carry around, also later designs feature a muzzle brake that decreases recoil by quite abit. Add to this the closed bolt system for increased accuracy.

true.

i would love to shoot an mp40 to compare lol

 

[Josef Nader]

chances are it is, though not by much

mp5 has a higher muzzle velocity, a closed bolt system which makes a difference if you firing semi, as well as siphoning gases off more effeciently



what in f***s name are you talking about? I read your post like 3 times and i still dont know what you're issue is.

you've never heard of point target and area target?

The absolute maximum range is the range in which the bullet shaves off enough kinetic energy to no longer become lethal. But we can ignore this, i just brought it up for educations sake.

As for bullets traveling along a perfect vertical plane, is true; that is if you bolt the gun down. When you fire a gun, your arms are not rock steady, they twitch, your body moves from breathing. There are many other factors as well, such as ambient temperature, rising thermals, the lining of your barrel, the grain/weight of the round.

I remember specifically mentioning that our main concern here is effective point target range, lethality is not an issue in this game; so im not too sure why your fixated on it. I never said 9mm rounds arnt lethal at 150m, so i dont know why you brought this up

EDIT: Here is an article about effective ranges, via 3sec of googling

[url]http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange[/URL]

So you pulled an article from an unfinished wiki? Real credible.

Yes, the shooter does move around minimally, but we're talking tiny deviations here. A few inches, tops. Face it, the average human torso is almost two feet wide, a few inches deviation at 100-150m isn't going to help the target much. Effective... ahem... point target range is spot on. Even firing full auto, an untrained shooter can land a decent grouping within 50 yards or so, so logically a well trained soldier should be able to pull off a similar grouping even frozen and exhausted, Expand that grouping by a few inches and you have your 100m or 150m groupings. All it takes is one bullet, and with a grouping that I imagine can't strech more than 2' end to end, you stand a very good chance of killing a target even with full auto saturation fire. Take your time and shoot bursts and you're in business.

Now, admittedly I'm taking my own experience with SMGs and extrapolating it to the ranges in question, but unless I'm totally wrong here I'm fairly certain that the MP40 is more than effective out to 150m.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Now, admittedly I'm taking my own experience with SMGs and extrapolating it to the ranges in question, but unless I'm totally wrong here I'm fairly certain that the MP40 is more than effective out to 150m.

I for sure would hate to be in the way of someone with an MP40 at that range.

 

[luciferintears]

So you pulled an article from an unfinished wiki? Real credible.

Yes, the shooter does move around minimally, but we're talking tiny deviations here. A few inches, tops. Face it, the average human torso is almost two feet wide, a few inches deviation at 100-150m isn't going to help the target much. Effective... ahem... point target range is spot on. Even firing full auto, an untrained shooter can land a decent grouping within 50 yards or so, so logically a well trained soldier should be able to pull off a similar grouping even frozen and exhausted, Expand that grouping by a few inches and you have your 100m or 150m groupings. All it takes is one bullet, and with a grouping that I imagine can't strech more than 2' end to end, you stand a very good chance of killing a target even with full auto saturation fire. Take your time and shoot bursts and you're in business.

Now, admittedly I'm taking my own experience with SMGs and extrapolating it to the ranges in question, but unless I'm totally wrong here I'm fairly certain that the MP40 is more than effective out to 150m.

No the article i pulled out was just to show you that those terms exist.

2ft torso huh? you must have a very wide torso...

As an avid hunter and competetive shooter, that is terminology that i have been using for years.

Honestly i dont think there is much for me to say, you have this moronic idea that a bullet will go exactly where you want it. I mean, of course thats true, its such a simple matter. Just pick up the gun and point it towards the target and using the eternal power of universe it will magically appear there. You know all those guys who spend hours at the firing range practicing? Yeah that dont matter, they're just showing off. that s*** is easy. And you know how it says that the effective range of an mp40 is at 150-200m? Yeah that's a lie too, its a conspiracy man. The effective range of an MP40 is waaay beyond that; its like a 1,000,000m

I assure such a thing like point and area target exist. Its in the f***ing gun owner manual of an AR15. Point target effective range 540m, Area target effective range 800m.

point target = human torso sized object (calculated using the first shot, so this does not include a fully auto burst)

area target = vehicle sized object (this is used mostly for area saturation by machine gunners)

I mean i can go on and explain, how you must be out of your mind if you think you can successfully maintian a tight cluster on a torso sized object from 150m away firing fully auto. Or how bullet deviation on fully auto is much more erratic than you're predicting, because it is coupled not only with muzzle climb but also with your attempt to hold it down, which causes wavering. Or how its most definitely NOT only 1 bullet that matters, as there have been documented cases of people taking multiple gunshot wounds before being subdued. Or how a majority of soldiers/marines hardly ever fire their rifles on full auto/burst, as it is a massive waste of ammo, when engaging targets peaking at the effective range. But I'm not.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Oh man, this is getting ugly...

Look guys, in reality the MP40 is quite effective out to 150 m, and it will still keep heads down at 200 m. It aint a sniper rifle though, and it's not performing as one ingame either, although some peeps in here seem to suggest this.

Now I would suggest that people try out the very first training mission in the singleplayer campaign and then note how the MP40 groups on the shooting range. Trust me, it's no laser gun...

But yes, the MP40 is more accurate than the PPSh41, just as it should be, but it's no laser gun and it's at a complete disadvantage against a rifle past 100m.