MP-40 is a a death ray gun!

[Grobut]

I think I mentioned user skill played a factor and to be honest neither did very well.As for semi auto the mp40 didn't have semi auto fire while the ppsh did.

Plop a single round in the mag, shoot, repeat till you have a respectable sample grouping

I have shot a mp40 it was a post war semi auto made from the same specs as the war one(besides fully auto). I have a type 3 federal fire arms license heck I can order you a mp40 if you want one.PPsh for that matter I have shot guns all my life. I know a 9mm carbine used in ww2 isn't accurate at 100yards.A 2-4 inch pattern is good at 25rds the barrel is made for rapid fire not high accuracy.

This is just my word and I want argue check out my ballistics calculator I added in a link.A 5 foot drop is hardly accurate at 200yrds no matter how skilled the shooter is the shot pattern will be worse than x7 what it was at 25 yards.Do the math lol your arguing your own point which is smg's give a rifleman a good run for their money at 200m.

actually Im happy with the smg's accuracy at 50m after 100m they should be toned down if its realism their aiming for but that's just my opinion.If they added a "little' kick to the mp40 they wouldn't have to decrease accuracy the kick would do that for them.The ppsh kicked like a mule in ro1 you just have to learn to fire short burst or roll the mouse down.

That does not compute.. on one hand you seem to be agreeing with me that the 9x19mm Parabellum should not be bullseye accurate out to 100 meters, yet twords the end of your post, you suggest it should be equal to a 7.62x54R or larger at 100m?

It should not, and that makes no sense..

 

[greenlemonade]

DRUM mags were also VERY prone to jamming. Want that for the PPSH too? It's one of the reasons they went with the clip mag later on.

Are you certain about that? I was under the impression taht misfeeds were only common when fully loading the drum. The PPSH didnt have a reputatoin for being less reliable than any other SMG. Realistically TW should load each mag with about 60 rounds.

Don't get me wrong, I've expressed in several threads my desire for a "weapon malfunction" mechanic that would require a rapid hit of the "Reload" key to fix the jam. These would be very rare, more common in SMGs and Semis of course.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

Played Barracks with my friend and i was able to get 3 kills until I picked up a mp-40.
I fraged 29 extra kills in 5-7 m time.
This gun is seriously too powerful! Getting people from 100 150 m was so easy. I didn't even use SVT ( wich is super easy in RO2) for long ranges.
PPSH is no match for MP-40.
I wonder was it really that good? And more importanly was PPSH that bad?

Funny. I regularly kill MP40 players with a PPSh... or an MG... or a bolt action rifle.

It's not the weapon, its how you use it. I bet you play the same way with the rifle as you do with the SMG... but you suck with the rifle because you're using it wrong. In RO2 unlike just about every other FPS out there, the realistic weapons mean you actually have to use them differently. Not just in how you shoot, but how you move through the map. Assault troops need to keep moving, relying on speed to get them out of trouble. Rifleman need to be a little more cautious - use your range to hit guys rather than getting into face to face confrontations and you'll do a lot better.

In other words, in this game real world small unit tactics and weapon handling techniques actually work. If you do it wrong, you will die easily. Do it right, and you will kill easily.

I always use manual bolting for the bolt action rifles. It means I can fire, bolt, and fire again, while an enemy using auto-bolting is still reloading after his first shot. I have even managed to get off three aimed shots for every shot a noob rifleman was able to fire at me.

All of the weapons are very accurate, compared to other games. So if you use them right, kills are easy to get.

 

[NoxNoctum]

I'd rather them lower the amount of MP40s than nerf the gun...

But PPSh recoil does seem a bit high. Though didn't TWI mess around with these guns IRL?

Anyways, once PPSh's got drum mag I think people will start complaining about it more.

 

[Spacehogking]

I believe German soldiers picked up the PPSH during the war, due to its superiority.

 

[greenlemonade]

In other words, in this game real world small unit tactics and weapon handling techniques actually work. If you do it wrong, you will die easily. Do it right, and you will kill easily.

We're getting there, but not yet.
To be closer to real world, Suppression effects, duration and cooldown would all have to double.
Weapons would need to be a bit less accurate at longer ranges.
Bandaging would have to take 5x as long.
And timelimits would have to be removed.

I DON't want those changes to occur because it would make for a very boring game, but there you have it.

 

[TheRealGunther]

That does not compute.. on one hand you seem to be agreeing with me that the 9x19mm Parabellum should not be bullseye accurate out to 100 meters, yet twords the end of your post, you suggest it should be equal to a 7.62x54R or larger at 100m?It should not, and that makes no sense..

It doesn't make a difference putting a single bullet in either gun even on full auto the first round will always be true to the guns accuracy a 2-3 round burst will show a good idea of their accuracy with a skilled shooter .
I never said it should be equal to a 7.62x54r lol i said that within 50 m they seems fine after 100 m they drop alot of accuracy.

this was meant for in game guns \/ which its true

"smg's give a rifleman a good run for their money at 200m" figure the word riflemen made it obvious guess not (edited )

that's my whole point smgs should not match rifles in accuracy in game (and my only real grip in game) not even the number of smgs
i'm not arguing with you which you seem to like too..my whole vids and post was against smg accuracy.

 

[greenlemonade]

I believe German soldiers picked up the PPSH during the war, due to its superiority.

It's not like the germans would drop their MP40s and pick up a PPSH.

They would use the PPSH over a bolt action or no gun at all if they used all their ammo.

 

[aop]

We're getting there, but not yet.
To be closer to real world, Suppression effects, duration and cooldown would all have to double.
Weapons would need to be a bit less accurate at longer ranges.
Bandaging would have to take 5x as long.
And timelimits would have to be removed.

I DON't want those changes to occur because it would make for a very boring game, but there you have it.

I don't think there are any special "suppression effects" IRL. It's called fear of death and it can't be modeled ingame. Different people react differently to imminent danger.

Weapons are just fine, I have couple a Mosins and they handle like their ingame counterparts plus some of the Tripwire staff own almost all the ingame weapons so I trust in their judgement.

I agree about bandaging. It's just gamey, just like nerfing weapons to be worse than their IRL counterparts were would be.

Lockdown timer sucks because the game ends even if your team is still trying, maybe replace it with "surrender option" to commander after the timer runs out. So the Commander decides if the team sucks enough to give it up.

 

[TheRealGunther]

It's not like the germans would drop their MP40s and pick up a PPSH.

They would use the PPSH over a bolt action or no gun at all if they used all their ammo.

Correct it wasn't that they chose the ppsh the mp40 was just costly to produce.And they just didn't have the quantities needed for a stalingrad type fight.They also captured thousands! of ppsh's so problem solved without a strain on the already strained german economy.Also didn't hurt the ppsh was a good weapon in its own right.

They both had their strength and weakness's and TWI has shown that in game to good effect the ppsh can be employed effectively as is with practice .Im glad their not mirrored guns myself I already covered my only problem with the smgs .

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

We're getting there, but not yet.
To be closer to real world, Suppression effects, duration and cooldown would all have to double.

No, to get there, "suppression effects" need to be gotten rid of altogether. They are dumb immersion breaking unrealistic gimmicks designed to make bad players feel better about themselves - if they can't kill people at least they can scare them.

Weapons would need to be a bit less accurate at longer ranges.

Why increase suppression but decrease accuracy? Can't you see how stupid that is? The "suppression" was only there to simulate a fear of death... but if people are saying the guns are too accurate... it's because they FEAR THEM. We don't NEED "suppression effects" because the game mechanics generate that fear naturally.

Bandaging would have to take 5x as long.

I could live with no bandaging at all. It really doesn't matter. Being able to rapidly bandage has never saved anyone that I was attacking. If the guy isn't dead, I don't stop shooting. If he gets out of my view and tries to bandage, by the time he is done, I will be gone, sneaking around to get another shot at him.

I simply assume that anyone that isn't dead is still 100% combat effective. No problem.

And timelimits would have to be removed.

What time limits? You mean round time limits? That isn't totally unrealistic. Many battles are determined by who manages to keep to their timetable. So its reasonably realistic and makes the game fun without any detrimental effects.

I DON't want those changes to occur because it would make for a very boring game, but there you have it.

I don't know about boring... but it wouldn't be a realistic tactical shooter, which is what I bought. If I wanted a CoD clone, I would have bought CoD.

Your problem is you are confusing "realism" as defined by most games, and "realism" as defined by the real world. What you are describing is not even remotely realistic.

Bandaging is there because the game makes minor wounds fatal. If you got shot in the arm, assuming a major artery wasn't hit, you will not die. So this game gives you the option to "bandage" the wound to prevent an unrealistic death.

Suppression is there because too many people have no idea, and can't hit the side of a barn with a shotgun. It is there simply to make bad players feel good about themselves.

Time limits are there because without them bad players become campers, and even though campers are easily dealt with, it still makes the game less fun.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

that's my whole point smgs should not match rifles in accuracy in game (and my only real grip in game)

Why not? Do you think 9mm bullets stop in mid-air? Do they randomly change directions for no reason?

The EFFECTIVE range of a pistol calibre round is low, but that doesn't mean it CAN'T be used to kill at long range. It just takes more skill.

I tell you this much, I beat SMGers with a bolt action, even in CQB. It's not the weapon, it's the user. A good SMG guy will kill you out to 100+ metres. A bad one can't kill you from 10 metres.

A good *insert role here* will beat a bad *insert role here* every time. That's how it is in the real world, and funnily enough, that's how it is in this "realistic tactical shooter".

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

And hey, according to Wikipedia the MP 40 had an effective range of 200 metres, so yeah, you can kind of expect to be seeing a few long ranges kills caused by that thing.

 

[TheRealGunther]

And hey, according to Wikipedia the MP 40 had an effective range of 200 metres, so yeah, you can kind of expect to be seeing a few long ranges kills caused by that thing.

If you call aiming 5-6 foot above your target and spraying 30 rounds to hit the target 1 time effective then ya.Buy a 9mm carbine and see for yourself how effective they are at 200m range.Im not getting my info from Wiki but from years of hands on experience.

If documented data is all that you will listen to according to wiki its effective range is 100m which I will agree is alot more plausible than 200m the bullet drop is only 5-8'' at 100m while its up to 6 foot at 200m.While if you get hit by a 9x19 at 200m it will kill its hardly accurate.Ask anyone that knows anything about guns and they will tell you the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40

 

[xMueller]

PPSh-41 - YouTube
^omg.....I want one

omg... please I NEED ONE. Was that like 70 rounds in 4 seconds? LOL

 

[TheRealGunther]

omg... please I NEED ONE. Was that like 70 rounds in 4 seconds? LOL

Almost double the rate of fire of the mp40 900rds per min Imagine the fear of the germans when red army had whole regiments of shock troopers with these things.In close quarters fighting in stalingrad it was more than effective ...to say the least

 

[Stahlgeist]

The MP40 and probably needs more considerable bullet drop at longer ranges, and the PPSh needs less recoil in iron sights, but that's about as far as I'd go for changing them. It's absolutely pointless to try and bring forward arguments about the "handler's skill" of bracing the weapons when you're playing a trained soldier in a video game. It should just be assumed, "You're a soldier, you've been trained to use these weapons, so you can effectively manage the recoil without it jumping all over the place as if it were in the hands of an amateur".

I'm personally quite happy with the way the submachine guns handle in-game. Aside from the slight tweaking mentioned above, I wouldn't alter it. After years of trying to counter ridiculous and unrealistic recoil with the MP40 in Ostfront, and the PPSh being guaranteed to hit you at fairly long ranges due to the cone of fire, I'm glad to see them being relatively easy to keep stable at sensible ranges in RO2.

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

If you call aiming 5-6 foot above your target and spraying 30 rounds to hit the target 1 time effective then ya.Buy a 9mm carbine and see for yourself how effective they are at 200m range.Im not getting my info from Wiki but from years of hands on experience.

I've got no real intention to buy a gun, and fortunately in my country (Belgium) civilians aren't allowed to buy military grade firearms which would include carbines. So you'll have to pardon me for following the paper trail instead.

And pardon me for having my doubts about your experiences with hitting moving humanoid targets at long ranges with carbines.

If documented data is all that you will listen to according to wiki its effective range is 100m which I will agree is alot more plausible than 200m the bullet drop is only 5-8'' at 100m while its up to 6 foot at 200m.While if you get hit by a 9x19 at 200m it will kill its hardly accurate.Ask anyone that knows anything about guns and they will tell you the same thing.

How odd, last time I checked the page I could've sworn it was 200m, must've been edited since then, or I misremembered, I do wonder if that's the effective range on a point or area target though. Considering it's an unsourced reference. Either way, accounts from veterans and modern experts alike in documentaries all seem to agree that the MP 40 was a pretty accurate piece of kit so I just assume that when you can get fairly long range kills with it in a video game centred around realism that that is just how the darn thing worked. *shrugs* I certainly am not going to break the law to find out if a game I play for fun is wrong.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

If you call aiming 5-6 foot above your target and spraying 30 rounds to hit the target 1 time effective then ya.Buy a 9mm carbine and see for yourself how effective they are at 200m range.Im not getting my info from Wiki but from years of hands on experience.

If documented data is all that you will listen to according to wiki its effective range is 100m which I will agree is alot more plausible than 200m the bullet drop is only 5-8'' at 100m while its up to 6 foot at 200m.While if you get hit by a 9x19 at 200m it will kill its hardly accurate.Ask anyone that knows anything about guns and they will tell you the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40[/URL]

Hmm.. Are you sure you have that right?

[url]http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm[/URL]

That site talks about a 9mm Luger having a drop of about 3 inches at 100 yards. Where did you get six foot from? That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you THROWING them at the target?

By the way, you know the "effective" range is not how far the bullet will go, its how far it will go while still having enough power to kill - AKA be effective.

The 9mm loses power rapidly but that doesn't mean that it can't hurt or even kill you at 200m. It's just a lot harder to do it.

The thing I've never seen anyone do is prove that the person who got that shot hit EXACTLY what they were aiming at, and weren't just lucky.

People complain like 100m MP40 kills happen all the time, but that's just plain bollocks. Hell even 100m rifle kills are rare on these maps. They happen... just like in real life. They are rare, and hard to do... just like in real life.

What's the problem?

 

[RoastinGhost]

I believe German soldiers picked up the PPSH during the war, due to its superiority.

This is true from what I've seen and read. The PPSh-41 was the Wehrmacht's second most used SMG.

The 9x19 and the 7.62x25 are very similar rounds. They should produce very similar amounts of kick. I was going to make a point about the PPSh probably being heavier what with its wood stock, but a quick fact check tells me they each weighed just over 4 kilograms. This means the guns kick back very close to the same amount with each shot. So the only difference should be rate of fire. The MP 40's slower rate allows one to compensate for the recoil more easily, where as the PPSh is more liable to get a few rounds off when you're still trying to get the muzzle down.

With that in mind, the PPSh should be more lethal with double the fire rate and mag size, if the user were able to compensate for the very similar recoil fast enough (and it's pretty easy compared to RO1). I think that the recoil needs to be fixed and that Pah Pah Shah users should be equipped (historically accurately) with 1 drum mag and a few (3?) sticks.

P.S.- The OP brought on a horrible Call of Duty: World at War flashback. I thought I would never have to think of that again...