RO1 Vets, there is a lack of

[Deek]

I don't have time for a clan. I used to play with the 506th during my early Ostfront days, but it's just not a viable option anymore.

Team play should be viable on a pub server assuming you run into like-minded players. If the game provides a way for strangers to play as an effective squad, they will do it. Occasionally.

If the tools are there - if squad-play is integrated, intuitive and impossible to miss - and people are still playing like idiots ... at least then I can blame the players without hesitation.

I want to blame the players. I really do.

 

[7.62Thunder]

I played for about 8 hours and went back to RO1. RO2 has some strong points and it's obvious that it could be great. But it just does not feel right to me as it is. The tanking is horrible with the new controls and overdone recoil. And the infantry combat is right in between fun and annoying. To be honest I think that RO1 with RO2 graphics and function improvements would be a far better game. And I mean as it is even with the old maps I've played 800 times. Of course that is just my opinion, I think RO should have stuck to its roots.

 

[hockeywarrior]

It's worth noting that to achive "Realism" in a videogame (within the constraints of what a game can do, it's never going to be 100% real), you sometimes have to do things in a less realistic way to get realistic results.

Yeah, that sounds like a massive contradiction, but if you dig a little deeper, it actually makes some sense..

The main thing most RO vets seem to have a problem with in Ro2, is the lack of tactical play, Ost was something special, because it managed to create an environment where real military tactics actually worked, and gamey FPS-game tactics would usually fail. And it did so without becoming too bogged down in simulation, it was still a fast round-based MP game where you could jump in and be in combat allmost emediately.

A lot of us are seeing this take a hit in Ro2, where real-life tactics can often be overwhelmed by the sheer speed of common FPS-game tactics, the gameplay feels more mainstream to us, more like all the other dime-a-dozen WWII shooters we where trying to escape when we found RO.


And oddly enough, some of Ost's lack of realism seems to have been instrumental in creating that gameplay-realism, like the running speeds, yeah they where not true to life in Ost, they where a bit too slow, and the aim sway, yeah it was a bit overdone, but in a game environment where none of us fears death (because it's not death, it's just a short wait in a respawn que), they seem to have been vital in creating realistic tactical play, the limitations made us play with more caution.

Meanwhile, it can be argued that Ro2 more clousely mimmicks real human abillity in some respects, a human probably could and should be able to sprint faster and longer than he could in Ost for instance, but then, it translates into unrealistic tactics beeing used and succeeding, since we have no fear of death, we go all out with thease abillities with gusto and bravado, and are pulling off nothing short of heroic deeds that most real soldiers would never have risked knowing it was his neck on the line..


The bottom line for me is that, RO:Ca and RO:Ost where games that i loved for their tactical play, their immersion and historical accuracy, they where games that made me feel like a soldier in a war, and not as Tom Hanks and a war movie.

Ro:Hos reminds me more of BiA, MoH, the early CoD's, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, it retains a lot of the origional RO spirit, it is more tactical than thouse games, and it is so nearly there, you could allmost taste it, but it's just out of reach..

I never liked games like BiA, MoH and the early CoD's, just never did, didn't find them fun, something about them has never clicked with me, but RO did, and in a big way!

Don't really know what to make of HoS.. and it frustrates me, because it's so clouse but just out of reach.. nearly there but then not quite..

Once again Grobut, you sum up my opinions perfectly.

/thread.

 

[smith1215]

I still need to upgrade my puter, that is why I have not been seen rallying the German forces to victory over the Reds. I have been spotted in RnL - just sayin'.

 

[Paas]

Makes perfect sense to me, especially with regard to promoting teamwork.

I love not seeing player names, I dig no kill cam, I prefer to not have kill/death confirmations scrolling in the upper right corner, I want more sway after sprinting and maybe I'm not sold on zooming ...

... but I want something on screen that allows me to identify my squad and my SL. Give me constant feedback, their position in relation to mine, their distance. If they're not in front of me, show me if they're beside or behind me. I like spawning on my SL (assuming he's not in sight of an enemy, in combat or in a cap ... meaning he has to fall back). I want VOIP chirping in my ears at all times, my SL coordinating or my squad mates communicating, and I want to know who the hell is talking. Give me an onscreen prompt when I hear a voice, show me a name and show me in-game who is talking with an icon over their head. Show me that my score is rising because I'm communicating and coordinating with my squad, constantly reinforce that this is the "right" way to play.

Realistic? Clearly, no. But certain "gamey" concessions must be made because, quite simply, this is a game. In real-life, I would know who's talking, I'd recognize their voice, their face, I'd have no trouble picking my SL and squad mates out of a crowd. I'd have spatial awareness far exceeding anything possible in a video game, I'd know where I was in relation to my squad, I'd know if Tommy were crouching next to me, whispering about the MG emplacement up ahead. Most importantly, I wouldn't need incentive to play by the rules of the squad, because in reality, that is how one survives an armed conflict. This is the stuff that is lost in a video game, the important interactions that must be artificially compensated for.

And of course, give players the option to turn all of this stuff off. You don't want squad icons? Off. Don't like VOIP? Off. You don't want to join a squad? Don't. The player should always have a choice. His game, his way ... even if it's not the "right" way.

All else considered, this is the stuff I'm really missing from RO2.

I love you.

In response to Grobut, tactics still work in RO2. It's just now only actual tactics work. Suppression, flanking, shifting lines of fire, etc. etc. You can't just get by with a range and height advantage alone because the enemy can pin you, and move another element through cover, and it won't take them a month to be up in your grill.

Honestly though, you don't see this level of coordination out of pubs in ANY game. The training just isn't there (yes, it takes training), and even when you get the training the discipline simply isn't there (sometimes it isn't even there inside of units). It takes a lot to get a bunch of men, and women, over the internet to coordinate like their life depends on their actions. When you get it going it's impossible to stop unless you're confronted by a like-minded team. In that case, better coordination from higher (with a little bit of chance) prevails.

Also, everyone, can we stop with the RO Veteran thing? I have played since the MOD as well, but time playing doesn't make anyone's opinions more valid. Your views should stand on their own merit, and your ability to correctly convey them to the masses. By trumpeting , "I've been playing RO since Christ walked the planet!" all you're doing is opening a rift in the debate. Last thing we need is an elitist mentality when discussing the direction we want to game to go (or in my case not got).

-Paas

 

[zeep]

RO1 Veteran medal? What is that?

I also think this is because of the speed of the game.
You spawn, zip along at warp speed, die eventually, respawn and repeat...

..I like the game, in general, but I think because of the general increase in pace, the tactics and teamplay have given in a bit.

I honestly can't believe that they implemented player speed based real life calculations like Ramm said.
He said something like, "we clocked a man running with gear and adjusted in-game speed to match that time/distance".
RO2 players run waay too fast. I haven't even seen a Walk function in-game now that i think of it, they just run or crouchwalk.

OT/
Also a MSX/C64 tape gamer here. I say you don't know computergaming until you've designed and rendered multicolor sprites and characters along with collision detection and oh, add some music.

 

[SunKing]

I used to play video games off a cassette tape.

"I want to play Popeye!"

*fast forward to 560 on the counter*

"Yay!"

God, I'm old.

You're not alone.

I still remember the day my parents brought us home PONG. The week that started it all.

Or spending countless hours photographing PITFALL finishes with a Polaroid camera, mailing them in for the original Activision Pitfall completion contest.

 

[Wodin]

Do you want a medal?

Only joking.

Ive been PC gaming since 1995, Ms-dos games to be precise

Sturm

Hehe I've beeng gaming sicne 1983 BBC B 32k....

 

[The_Cook]

long time RO vet. Needs moar penalty for when you run out of stamina. currently you are only reduced too about 3/4 which puts you still a bit faster than walking. So there really isn't any penalty at the moment. Make running out of stamina 1/2 of walking speed, also massive sway penalty if you try to ADS while out of stamina and in an unsupported position. Stamina recovery needs to be lessened. This way you have to manage your stamina

Also suppression effect is nice, but I can still shoot straighter than an arrow under suppression, and being black and white helps me see where the douche is shooting from. Make screen do what it does now, put a massive sway penalty. or blurring penalty.. something.

Shooting from an unsupported position needs greater sway penalty. currently I can hit anything I can see from a standing unsupported position with any gun.

 

[The_Cook]

The_Cook has been gaming since 1985, Commodore 64 "HEART OF AFRICA!!!"

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I have found a server that I've been playing on with ALL of the HUD turned off, so you only really see some notifications and of course when you are at an objective. Minus some bugs and optimization of course, it really does feel like ROOST+.

For me, that makes a tremendous difference compared to most of the other servers I have been on. Its amazing how all of that visual HUD fluff can really spoil the game for me, in comparison that is.

~Edit: Hopefully on release we will be given more options for displaying our own HUD or not.

 

[Deek]

I love you.

Awww. I love you, too.

Really though, despite my varied opinions on sway, stamina, respawn times and all that other piddly crap, this is my main gripe about the game. Teamwork is the key. So much unrealized potential. I'm not an idiot, though. I realize it's too much to ask with just over a week until release ... but a guy can dream.

 

[radix]

RO1 Veteran medal? What is that?

^this.

 

[Grimreapo]

Being another oldie who played the mod* I can say that I love RO2 more than RO1, why? Nothing has made me rage, no gameplay bull**** and only things that piss me off are bad teams, the sniper MG on tanks (which RUIN matches) and dodgy hit boxes when up close. There no moving around like map like an old person being easy prey to bolt rifles, you can storm positions and its fluid as it should be. No longer will my SMG be useless over 25m as struggle to move around the map, no longer being hit by magnum shotgun slugs and no dumb kill streaks pissing down on me. Just me and a game that rewards for capturing objectives...

There are some issue, like realism should be a little bit more harsh on sprinting and bandages but on the whole I love it...

*Am I going mad or did one point the mod had a single player bit? It was RO or some other eastern front mod that had a ambush map with some German bots with the player being a Russian with a PPSH...

 

[Oldih]

The main thing most RO vets seem to have a problem with in Ro2, is the lack of tactical play, Ost was something special, because it managed to create an environment where real military tactics actually worked, and gamey FPS-game tactics would usually fail. And it did so without becoming too bogged down in simulation, it was still a fast round-based MP game where you could jump in and be in combat allmost emediately.

The "real military tactics actually worked" part is sort of backwards, as paradoxic as it sounds. Most of IRL stuff say like battle drills or so, using them in RO1 only were useful once in a blue moon and barely had any practical benefit while paradoxically they are more useful in RO2. Proper use of cover and concealment is also one thing that has more importance in RO2, so does general exposure. Sure in RO1 you had to sort of pay attension for it due pixelhunting rifles > everything else at anything past SMG-range. One example that would not work in RO1 under any practical circumstances is the german frogleap advance. Now in RO2 it is actually somewhat practical and useful if applied properly.

Meanwhile, it can be argued that Ro2 more clousely mimmicks real human abillity in some respects, a human probably could and should be able to sprint faster and longer than he could in Ost for instance, but then, it translates into unrealistic tactics beeing used and succeeding, since we have no fear of death, we go all out with thease abillities with gusto and bravado, and are pulling off nothing short of heroic deeds that most real soldiers would never have risked knowing it was his neck on the line..

The key difference in tactics is mostly that RO2 favours aggressive approach which is required to win maps. The same principle is also present in RO1, if you don't try to push in capzone you can't win the map. You could see people doing a lot of heroic deeds that would be worth of a medal for their sheer ballsiness in RO1 a lot after it's release. It wasn't that uncommon even in RO:CA with some of the "veteran" players in some ways, it really boiled down to the map, situation and certain other factors. The overhype about RO not being gullible for gamey tactics is as false as it can get, the only thing mostly is that it discourages it due different reasons. This was the case with RO:CA in some ways, RO1... and also in RO2.

Now it could be noted that the defender has notable advatange IRL, but this runs into limitations of the gameplay itself in some cases. The defenders are not even in semi-prepared positions (which would be the case IRL), the teamsizes are equal per playercounts and the reinforcements are more like flood of troopers instead of genuine reserves. Now I am fully aware that this is limitations of technology and has gameplay arguments, but if we must consider it from realistic point of view, the emphasis on offensive manouvres\iniative if applicable is something stressed for squad leaders and even their members. Suicidial charges is one thing, but keeping the enemy on their toes even with a disadvatange or taking them off guard has caused shifts in tactical advatange (or exploiting it) has been shown to occasionally cause victories on the battlefield on tactical level at least. Or even operational.

Now translating that to a video game is a tricky subject and obviously matter of how do you view it in the first place, but RO1 favoured defenders in pretty interesting ways, as you could just sit around and there's no need for stuff like actual counterattacks or even while defending trying to relocate stuff or keep the attacker on their toes instead of running towards you. Shooting them was sufficient. RO2 in some ways behaves more on the neutral ground that it doesn't favours the side that actually tries to take the iniative and get in there - the capzone and clear it. Just sitting there and taking potshots doesn't qualify. As much as it can produce gamey situations as well, close combat and trenchrolling for instance relies heavily on the getting up close and personal. While Stalingrad and Case Blue definitely has other things involved, the game's focus is obviously in the initial conquest and the reconquest of the city that qualifies as genuine MOUT hell where aggressive approach was the name of the game, regardless of the side. Fear of death didn't prevent people from try and do their "jobs" IRL even if they were ****ting their pants, crying for their mother or [insert anything else here].

In some ways as paradoxic as it is, even with some flaws, side-effects caused by mechanics, silly things or even disapointing parts it gives you interestingly curious results in realistic sense, even when it robs some of it away due some of the aforementioned issues.