Fictional Player Skill SSO

[kalle]

Ok, fair enough. But could you please explain how the values controlling how the player reacts to recoil, or how fast he moves, is any different from how he reacts to being under fire. It's all game design decisions, it's just that morale and supression isn't as common in most shooters.

Anyway, it's not impossible at all that you can adjust it in server settings, though it could be a problem if you can tweak everything as every server would play as a different game.

 

[Poodles]

This feature has been wanted since the early days of the original mod, and it was constantly shot down as it mitigates players skill and throws off balance.

You guys seem to think it's "realistic" when in reality if you were being suppressed by a MG you'd be digging in and using mirrors to see where they are. You'd then be throwing grenades or putting your gun up over the edge of your cover to get fire on them. Situational awareness is a seriously flaw in ALL FPS games, and RO is no different. Now, adding a system that makes it even harder to take out the already overpowered MGer (given RO's realistic weapon ballistics and damage) you just made the game unfun.

The real fun part is the guy that doesn't play all that often doesn't get "experience" so he's suppressed easier. Even worse, that same high experience guy gets on a MG, he's all but unstoppable.

And the whole moral thing, what does the sniper do? Yeah, he's really doing his job by sticking with the pack of people instead of scouting around and taking out dangerous targets. How is that realistic?

They're great features...for a single player game.

Keep in mind I've played RO since the very early days and I have a heavy background in FPS and MMORPG games. RPG elements can NEVER get in the way of basic aspects of an FPS game if you want to be successful. An FPS game you should be able to pick up and play and never feel gimped compared to the other players by the game, only by your skill level at playing the game. An artificial skill level placed in the game is likely to just plain piss people off (as it has on many other long since dead FPS games that did things like this).

 

[Stahlgeist]

I'd like to know what you mean about "overpowered MGer". Even in the Darkest Hour mod, which utilizes suppression effects much like RO2, the machinegunner is still quite vulnerable to returned fire. I've seen machinegunners in DH get picked off in spite of laying suppressing fire on the person who shot them. Suppression effects do little to prevent a savvy player from simply popping up quickly and taking a miraculously accurate shot.
I imagine that machinegunning in RO2 will have similar risks. Like in its predecessor and mods, having fire support from teammates is key to continued, successful operation of the machinegun.

Besides, the words "overpowered" and "machinegunner" sound ludicrous together. That's exactly why the weapon became such a staple in the battlefield to begin with!

 

[Poodles]

I'd like to know what you mean about "overpowered MGer". Even in the Darkest Hour mod, which utilizes suppression effects much like RO2, the machinegunner is still quite vulnerable to returned fire. I've seen machinegunners in DH get picked off in spite of laying suppressing fire on the person who shot them. Suppression effects do little to prevent a savvy player from simply popping up quickly and taking a miraculously accurate shot.
I imagine that machinegunning in RO2 will have similar risks. Like in its predecessor and mods, having fire support from teammates is key to continued, successful operation of the machinegun.

Besides, the words "overpowered" and "machinegunner" sound ludicrous together. That's exactly why the weapon became such a staple in the battlefield to begin with!

Sure, a sniper can pick you off, that's their job. If a MGer gets picked off by normal rifles, he's either not covering his flanks correctly, or doesn't know how to play.

You already made my point with your last comment though, you're making them even MORE overpowered.

 

[Hoak]

I'd like to know what you mean about "overpowered MGer". Even in the Darkest Hour mod, which utilizes suppression effects much like RO2, the machinegunner is still quite vulnerable to returned fire. I've seen machinegunners in DH get picked off in spite of laying suppressing fire on the person who shot them. Suppression effects do little to prevent a savvy player from simply popping up quickly and taking a miraculously accurate shot.

I'm fine with Darkest Hour's suppression post-processing effect, what remains unclear, and I don't like is all the fruity touchy-feely sissy cry baby TV assumptions people make that have never been near a firearm no less combat.

The idea of absolute proximity to another Player effecting my moral is quite a stretch, having that in turn effect my marksmanship skill as a well seasoned rifleman is patently asinine.

Similarly being suppressed may abruptly throw up a loud and startling hail of missiles, spall and crap that can be quite lethal and injurious -- but if it's steady, and you know where it's going, caefully crawling up on to get an angle on it's origin does not make you more fearful or in turn a less accurate marksman.

:IS2:

 

[[TW]Wilsonam]

This is the best accidental argument for having a Hero class on the forum.

Bingo

 

[MikkOwl]

Blur is also there to simulate the fact that you are closing your eyes because of the bullets landing near you, like when somebody clap his hands in your face. Also to simulate the fact that dust, snow, branches, rocks, etc are kicked around by the bullets, making your eyes close to avoid of having one of these in your eyes.

This is exactly what I was thinking when being suppressed. It's not about just people shooting over your head. They are shooting hitting all kinds of stuff around you. There's ricochets and crap, loudly flying around everywhere. It is loud. Startling as hell. That's without any actual fear, too.

Regarding the player body abilities for veterans, I'm not a supporter of it. The veterans are already superior in every respect. Helping them be even more, is detrimental to morale. A feeling of it being equivalent to cheating. "He only got the kill because...".

Instead I favor 'different' options as reward for veterans, such as increased responsibilities, different equipment. Earn the right to use certain roles, such as gain X kill ratio with bolt action rifle to be able to use the bolt action sniper rifles (when available). Doesn't mean they get them before anyone else, just that they can at all try to get them. A kind of fun while logical goal to strive for.

 

[VariousNames]

Bingo

Erase the prog system entirely, differentiate players on a random basis with variable suppression resistance, and you're gold.

EDIT: Keep clickin' that red button, kids. It's not going to stop me from posting.

 

[Hoak]

To wit, there are hardened combat Veterans that are of a kind and character that do not flinch, impulsively duck, or flee under even enormous pressure and volume of shelling and fire. I have first hand knowledge of men of this caliber, and history gives ample examples that virtually every combat hardened force has had men that always have their eyes up and ears open, know how to move on a fusillade of suppressive fire, find a hole in it to move on it's source and either remove it or get precise coordinates quickly and calmly.

This is the best accidental argument for having a Hero class on the forum.

Bingo

It is? Bingo?

If by 'argument' either of you mean anything that resembles the rational deductive use of logic in presenting something that resembles a reason for 'a Hero class'; I would very much like to see either of you make something that resembles an honest effort at explaining how. Failing that, by the same standards this is also 'the best accidental argument' for incorporating Dragons, Magic Spells, Magic Robots From Outer Space, and Heavy Metal Guitars as game features and content in RO2...

Sadly some may easily fooled by logical fallacies like this converse error and this brilliant (sarcasim) ignoratio elenchi; and not see why this is not a reason to incorporate a 'Magic Hero' or anything of the kind in Red Orchestra 2...

If the premise of Red Orchestra 2 is a highly realistic game where; 'tactical realism', 'scale realism', 'fidelity', and 'authenticity' have all been used in context by the Developers to describe the game remain at least part of its design intention; where game is meant to incorporate a balanced contest of real Player skill -- magic classes have no place in MP as Poodles points out.

In game Developer parlance 'Class' is a depiction of fictional player skills that the real Player does not possess or develop even in abstract. As a real person I posses exceptional real world marksmanship skills, and FPS game marksmanship skills, but a 'Class' magically and arbitrarily delivers the advantage by leveraged game mechanics (magical weapon accuracy anyone?) these skill that I have learned through long practice, study, effort and experience -- to any Player through an arbitrary path that has nothing to do with learning even an abstract of the same skills.

This has three strong negative outcomes: 1) It makes the skill curve of the game asymptotic to zero with respect to to those skills compiled in any magical 'Class'. 2) It punishes Player effort to learn game skills that are abstracts of real skill. 3) It rewards arbitrary 'grind' time and effort as a substitute for learning a real game skill, or game abstarct of a real skill.

The negative consequences of this across all FPS MP Games that have dabbled with RPG elements of the kind where play time is arbitrarily rewarded, and focused effort on an approach to play that develops real Player skill is punished are many, but the two 'deal-breakers' that are perhaps most evident are: Audience size is substantially curtailed by initial size/sales. Even if there are substantial FPS features and content, the game will develop a reputation as an RPG, which will dramatically curtail it's prospects for recognition for competitive play where real Player skill must be the final arbiter of all game-play outcomes.

So, this digression then brings me full-circle to my original premise and reason for posting this in the General forum from whence it was moved: "Will there be a Server Side Options (SSO) for 'Fictional Player Skills' in RO2?" The lazy and even some what rude Developer response to this very simple question, and 'me too' FanBoy chiming in has my trigger finger on the Steam order cancel button...

:IS2:

 

[VariousNames]

This is the best accidental argument for having a Hero class on the forum.

I'd say the biggest issue there is the false equivalence between player skill and avatar skill.

If I go boot up World of Warcraft and jump on my level 80 warrior and *****slap a giant dragon, is that a reflection of my incredible warrior prowess?

There's a difference between progress in a simscape and player progress. Player progress is for instance my ability to wtfpwn a professional Quake tourney, which I can guarantee you is an ability I do not possess because professional Quake players are insane.

Avatar progress is intended to reflect the progress of your avatar as it grows through the simscape, but if your avatar literally dies in combat, I don't see how, short of a WoW-style spirit res or Shaman Ancestral spirit I'm going to retain my progress and continue accumulating experience and quest-rep. So unless we're making the assessment that the respawn timer is an actual example of my avatar's spirit being transmitted into the body of another battle hardened soldier, a la a resurrection via Healer class in World of Warcraft, the entire idea of in-game progress is in and of itself asinine.

The real problem with the prog system is in essence it presumes that player prog should be reflected in the avatar, which is nonsense.

If there are differences between the capacities of soldiers, those differences should not be delegated on the basis of player progress, which is unfair and destructive to game balance in addition to being completely unrealistic for reasons I just mentioned above ^

This is post concession of suppression mechanic, which I'm not attempting to contest.

 

[Poodles]

This is exactly what I was thinking when being suppressed. It's not about just people shooting over your head. They are shooting hitting all kinds of stuff around you. There's ricochets and crap, loudly flying around everywhere. It is loud. Startling as hell. That's without any actual fear, too.

Regarding the player body abilities for veterans, I'm not a supporter of it. The veterans are already superior in every respect. Helping them be even more, is detrimental to morale. A feeling of it being equivalent to cheating. "He only got the kill because...".

Instead I favor 'different' options as reward for veterans, such as increased responsibilities, different equipment. Earn the right to use certain roles, such as gain X kill ratio with bolt action rifle to be able to use the bolt action sniper rifles (when available). Doesn't mean they get them before anyone else, just that they can at all try to get them. A kind of fun while logical goal to strive for.

Kill ratio is a terrible way to apply unlocks. It only encourages people to roll new accounts to start fresh. It's the exact same reason that a progression system is crappy in the first place, it's a barrier to having new players come in after the initial launch as they will ALWAYS be handicapped by the simple time difference and not real skill.

I'd say the biggest issue there is the false equivalence between player skill and avatar skill.

If I go boot up World of Warcraft and jump on my level 80 warrior and *****slap a giant dragon, is that a reflection of my incredible warrior prowess?

There's a difference between progress in a simscape and player progress. Player progress is for instance my ability to wtfpwn a professional Quake tourney, which I can guarantee you is an ability I do not possess because professional Quake players are insane.

Avatar progress is intended to reflect the progress of your avatar as it grows through the simscape, but if your avatar literally dies in combat, I don't see how, short of a WoW-style spirit res or Shaman Ancestral spirit I'm going to retain my progress and continue accumulating experience and quest-rep. So unless we're making the assessment that the respawn timer is an actual example of my avatar's spirit being transmitted into the body of another battle hardened soldier, a la a resurrection via Healer class in World of Warcraft, the entire idea of in-game progress is in and of itself asinine.

The real problem with the prog system is in essence it presumes that player prog should be reflected in the avatar, which is nonsense.

If there are differences between the capacities of soldiers, those differences should not be delegated on the basis of player progress, which is unfair and destructive to game balance in addition to being completely unrealistic for reasons I just mentioned above ^

This is post concession of suppression mechanic, which I'm not attempting to contest.

The exact reason that WoW really isn't built for competitive play. They've tried a lot but the simply fact that gear/level > skill kills it. Adding RPG elements to an FPS game (which is not about rolling dice in the background, it's about actually aiming and tactics) is completely detrimental to the entire genre.

The only reason to have unlocks is quite simply to "gate" content so a game that's not well supported with new maps or items will last longer. It's a cold hard fact that everyone seems to ignore these days...

 

[Hoak]

This feature has been wanted since the early days of the original mod, and it was constantly shot down as it mitigates players skill and throws off balance.

I wouldn't exactly say 'wanted' though I would say hotly agrued and shot down. As I recall you (and David Hasselhoff) were quite popular on those forums -- too bad all their content is (deliberately) lost to us now...

I'd say the biggest issue there is the false equivalence between player skill and avatar skill.

Exactly! With respect to MMO Class Skill features it's an inverse function, which obviously has veracity and appeal in games where you don't want Player skill, eye-hand coordination, or first-person tactics to prevail; and as Poodles points out can play well and fine in a single player realism game...

But what kind of audience does Tripwire imagine is going to want to play a game that advertises 'realism' yet magically increases the accuracy of your weapons based on how long you've played, and how many magic skill orbs you've collected?

It's hard to feature RO2 has a prayer in competitive gaming (or by serious Tactical Realism Fans of any stripe) without an official SSO to disable this stuff... And it's strange to see so little interest in what used to be a hot topic that invested a lot of serious discussion and even thoughtful contribution from the (Mod) Developers...