Suppression + Reloading.

[barakas]

I've seen that suppression effects will affect weapon sway and vision, but I haven't seen anything on reloading.

I think it would be a good feature to add to suppression effects that it makes it harder to reload. It seems to make sense that you would be more shakey/clumsy when you are being suppressed, which is exactly what you don't want for reloading.

For low/mid level suppression, the reloading animation would just be a bit shakier/clumsier, and it would take slightly longer to complete.

For heavy suppression, there could be a percentage chance of some kind of catastrophic reload failure, i.e. you drop the magazine, you jam the gun by not cocking it properly etc, so that you have to reload a second time. or the guy is just shaking so much it takes a really long time to get the mag/clip in properly.

It would seem to make suppression more realistic, since it would add extra disincentive for players not to try and engage in firefights while suppressed, without making it impossible for them to actually try.

Maybe someone with better experience with guns could come up with some realistic types of reload failure, but it doesn't seem to make sense that a soldier who's being heavily suppressed could reload perfectly normally.

Also, one other point:

Being attached to cover will reduce suppression and make suppression level decrease faster. Will going prone have a similar suppression negating effect?

 

[LightsabeR]

For heavy suppression, there could be a percentage chance of some kind of catastrophic reload failure, i.e. you drop the magazine, you jam the gun by not cocking it properly etc, so that you have to reload a second time. or the guy is just shaking so much it takes a really long time to get the mag/clip in properly.

I'm definitely against this.

A x% chance for your reloads to fail would just make the game more random, which in my mind, is not a good thing.

Now, if there was a way to make reloading under heavy suppression harder, but still dependent on player skill, I'd be for it, but basing your rate of success on random dice rolls just sounds wrong.

 

[<animal>INSTINCT]

Players hate when control is taken away from them by randomized occurances. This is why there won't be weapon jamming in HoS, even though it would be a realistic feature to implement.

Slowing the speed of a reload animation or having an animation where the avatar has a little trouble inserting the magazine is as far as suppression effects should go, in terms of reloading.

 

[MagicSnake]

I like the idea of a longer reload time while being suppress.
It might even come with a perk for higher ranking players: "muscle memory": no reload speed penalty while being suppressed.

 

[Forssen]

I agree with that reloading maybe could take longer when being suppressed. More clumsy and trying to push the magazine or drag the bolt more aggressively, like you really are in a hurry. Simply making the animation slower would work too but not being as dramatic.

 

[ductape3]

fantastic idea +1

 

[barakas]

Players hate when control is taken away from them by randomized occurances. This is why there won't be weapon jamming in HoS, even though it would be a realistic feature to implement.

Slowing the speed of a reload animation or having an animation where the avatar has a little trouble inserting the magazine is as far as suppression effects should go, in terms of reloading.

It isn't outside of the players control, or random.

If an F1 grenade goes off near you in RO2, (assuming they're modelling fragmentation properly) then sometimes you will be hit by a fragment of shrapnel, sometimes you will not.

This does not mean its out of the players control whether they get hit by a piece of shrapnel or not, it just means giving a realistic range of outcomes.

It's not the same as just randomly getting hit by shrapnel for no reason, its an effect of a specific attack. The disruption to reloads would only be in response to heavy suppression (i.e. having an MG42 or artillery bearing down on you), not randomly.

I would agree that even though its realistic, having randomly messed up reloads would be un-fun and a bad game mechanic, since there wouldn't be anything the player could do about it, and it would merely lead to pissing them off every time it happened.

However, by only having it work in respect to heavy suppression, it makes it a form of attack that can be used for tactical reasons and not just random punishment from the game. The player could react tactically, by trying to reload or do other important action during breaks in the suppression, such as when the MG is reloading.

Say if the player knew there was a 50% chance of a reload fail when they are maximally suppressed, they could still act on this. They could decide whether they think they'll need a round in the chamber ASAP, or whether they think the suppression will lift off soon and they should just wait.

Trying to fight normally when being suppressed should have downsides.

This wouldn't be like weapon jamming where just every 100,000 rounds or so the player gets owned through no fault of their own. This is tactical style decision of "okay, I'm getting heavily suppressed now, so I'm not going to risk a reload unless I absolutely have to"

Players would have complete control over whether it happened or not, since they could just decide to wait till suppression has gone down for reloading.

 

[Actin]

However, by only having it work in respect to heavy suppression, it makes it a form of attack that can be used for tactical reasons and not just random punishment from the game. The player could react tactically, by trying to reload or do other important action during breaks in the suppression, such as when the MG is reloading.

Why would it be bad anyway? Suppressed means your under fire;
This should lead to you taking cover for some time or relocate, not firing back ASAP.

So if you take cover and your reloading is taking a little bit longer, I think I won't even notice most of the time. You're busy taking cover, not reloading (at least, that's the smartest thing to do)

 

[barakas]

Why would it be bad anyway? Suppressed means your under fire;
This should lead to you taking cover for some time or relocate, not firing back ASAP.

So if you take cover and your reloading is taking a little bit longer, I think I won't even notice most of the time. You're busy taking cover, not reloading (at least, that's the smartest thing to do)

I would argue that even with the new suppression system, they're going to have difficulty getting players to react realistically to MG fire suppression, simply because they're never going to be as scared of dying, and its never going to really feel like you're being shot at.

People are still going to be trying to fire back in situations where they realistically wouldn't.

Even if you take out my idea for reload "failure" under heavy suppression, just having a longer than normal reload during suppression will make suppression more realistic, since it means suppressed people will be spending less time fighting back, which is precisely the point of suppression.

It also gives players extra incentive to act naturally and get behind cover, other than it just being harder to shoot back.

At the very least, having the animation for reloading being more shaky/clumsy during suppression would be a neat visual indicator, even if there was no change to reload mechanics.

 

[jalex3]

so now then a smg is spamming you and missing you reload even slower? seems smgs are getting huge advantages better accuracy, more suppression because of the amount of spam...

 

[Actin]

Even if you take out my idea for reload "failure" under heavy suppression, just having a longer than normal reload during suppression will make suppression more realistic, since it means suppressed people will be spending less time fighting back, which is precisely the point of suppression.

It also gives players extra incentive to act naturally and get behind cover, other than it just being harder to shoot back.

At the very least, having the animation for reloading being more shaky/clumsy during suppression would be a neat visual indicator, even if there was no change to reload mechanics.

Completely agree, I ignored ( not on purpose) the failure of a magazine anyway. Slower reloading is far better.
Also only a different reloading animations would be awesome too. Good idea!

 

[barakas]

so now then a smg is spamming you and missing you reload even slower? seems smgs are getting huge advantages better accuracy, more suppression because of the amount of spam...

Firstly, the new zoom feature, along with more realistically ranged maps, is going to make riflemen MUCH more effective against SMGs at range than before.

SMGs aren't getting better accuracy, but better recoil control. They will still have a worse cone of fire than rifles, and they will still have less stopping power than rifle bullets.

Secondly, I believe suppression for SMGs will be much lower than for MGs and artillery. Not only is SMG lower calibre, it has smaller magazines/drums than MGs, which means prolonged suppression is much harder.

Thirdly, now that bullet penetration is in, SMGs will be much more disadvantaged against targets in cover. If you have an SMG troop and a Rifleman hiding behind walls, firing at each other, then the SMG bullets will not penetrate the wall, but the Rifleman's bullets will, making SMG soldiers much more vulnerable in cover vs cover scenarios.

However, suppression is more effective with rapid fire weapons, and it will be a handy feature for tactics, for SMG gunners to lay down suppressive fire for Riflemen to manoeuvr under, though obviously they will be much poorer than MGs for the task.

As far as everything I've read, RO2 will only make rifles and SMGs more realistic. Riflemen will be much more effective over distances, and against cover (as they where in real life), SMGs will be much more effective in close quarters (as they were in real life).

 

[jalex3]

I still think its fine how it is, both have new advantages. I see no need give them any fancy suppression effects.

 

[Cookieeater]

After playing paintball, I say that add a decent amount of shaking/swaying to your gun while being shot at, and increase mouth smoothing .

 

[barakas]

I still think its fine how it is, both have new advantages. I see no need give them any fancy suppression effects.

"fancy suppression effects" are already in, such as blurred vision, weapon sway, heartbeat sounds and heavy breathing.

Also, as I already mentioned, SMG will not be anywhere near as useful for suppression as MG. Quite frankly I'm puzzled at why you're making this an issue of over-powering the SMG, when its artillery and MGs it will effect most.

I see nothing fancy in having suppression also effect reloading. If anything, the blurred vision and weapon sway are far more unnatural and unrealistic, since they are trying to compensate for the lack of fear of death, by artificially making it harder to see and shoot.


However, how well you are at precision tasks, is something that goes out of control when you are panic'd and full of adrenalin, so it seems a more realistic effect (especially since its not realistic to reload at exactly the same speed every time).

It also gives an option for realistic character progression in the "heroes" system, since ability to perform under fire is something that improves over time, suddenly getting more stamina and speed even though veterans are more worn out than new recruits, is not.

Just random errors and changes in reload time would be un-fun and add nothing to gameplay, but having it as an effect of suppression makes suppression both more useful without being unrealistic, and puts it within players control, rather than as random punishment from the game.

The test when it comes down to what should be put in RO2 is:

1. Is it realistic (or better simulates realism)?

2. Does it add positively to the gameplay?

And I think having suppression effect reloads fits both those criteria.

 

[monster]

For heavy suppression, there could be a percentage chance of some kind of catastrophic reload failure, i.e. you drop the magazine, you jam the gun by not cocking it properly etc, so that you have to reload a second time. or the guy is just shaking so much it takes a really long time to get the mag/clip in properly.

This is another opportunity for Heroic Event Generation (HEG) (as opposed to heroic grinding).

If an enemy has just charged through half of your team mowing them down, then heck yes a person would be nervous if they were next.

A HEG event that could be triggered by heroic action would be to expose anyone near them to the possiblity of fumbling their magazines.

Keep in mind that HEGs are random things caused after a player commits the actions neccesary to cause a HEG. It may be immunity to slow-down due to leg shots one time, and a magazine fumbling next time.

One is only limited by their imagination when considering what could create a HEG, and what the result would be. Making reload harder is one of them.