Forum Opinion on Tank Bailing Poll

[Fedorov]

Oh, you can single crew a tank?

Then post #76 stands.

not if you want to team tank

 

[SheepDip]

The tank will always be fully crewed - AI or connected players.

It's not like we don't see your point REZ, you aren't the only person in the numerous threads where we've had this discussion to have expressed their disapproval.

Bailed tank crew are not a valuable asset without their tank, given that in HOES TWI are trying to make the conflict a bit more focussed - having the tank crew be able to wander off, and leave the team without armoured support for any spell of time is not favourable.

They have not said they won't implement it, but currently it is not - and it won't be implemented without fully animated bailing animations (and that is a buttload of work).

I doubt that the odds of a bailing tank crew actually getting out of the tank alive, without being gunned down on their way out by the people they are under fire from in the first place are slim. And coupled with a few other issues means that the workload for implementation outweighs the benefit to gameplay, regardless of realism.

 

[Zetsumei]

You can, but the most common scenario is that people want to share tanks with friends. If someone dies outside, or the tank explodes when someone is outside, then he is useless and screwed, is not fun for him, and not fun for the tanker who has his tank capabilities reduced (and not playing with his friend).

Most likely people are able to spawn in tanks even if they are not in the capzone, meaning if someone would leave the tank go on foot he would probably be able to despawn and respawn in that tank. (at the logical consequence of that tank having 1 less crew slot filled).

I don't think anybody got anything against spawning inside a tank. Its rather about the ability to leave. In some cases it can be handy, but in public matches at least it could lead to some stupid tank commander running around as infantry for 30 the entire match, while the rest of the team simply needs the tank to survive.

For me a big reason of being able to exit the tank is to feel that you're a living person breathing inside that tank. If you stay inside a tank you feel like locked up inside. And beside the bad things that get prevented by exiting the good things get prevented as well.

I hope at least that if a tank is burning out that you can see an animation of tankers leaving the tank and then running to cover. Which could simply be bots after the player has already respawned but logically server resources remain important.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

But you are both assuming that a soldier will count the same amount as a tank. What is the value of a tanker not in a tank? I still don't see how getting out of a tank will help your side just like when a commander is not doing what they need to do.

no, we assume that cap power lies in the life of the soldier, not the tank. this is the way it was in RO, i'd assume it'd be the same, at least until TW says otherwise. again, re-read my post and example which clearly shows how a tanker can still be effective outside of his tank.

there is a tanking only map, probably this new map Gumrak we saw in the latest video......it is listed as being in TE (territory mode), so we'd expect there to be objectives to be capped. in order for an objective to be captured, there must be cap presence. if this power lies in the life of the soldier like it did in RO, then again, my example highlights the potential benefits of a tanker having the ability to exit his vehicle.

 

[REZ]

not if you want to team tank

No one is forcing you to get out. Stay inside all you want.. but at least having the option to get out is the more realistic, and yes, valuable option than not being able to get out at all.

@Sheepdip - This is the first of these threads I've participated in. I havent read the others, so it's all new for me. Having a lengthy exit/enter animation would solve the problem of popping out of your tank just before being killed, which is the real reason why this locking the tankers up in their tanks idea really started from. I think you're right about the crew not being able to exit fast enough, that's why I proposed it, but there will be situations where you do have time and you can be useful outside of the tank.

All these other reasons these guys have come up with dont hold any water. Asynchronization? No. Ineffectiveness? If you think a tanker is so ineffective outside of his tank then how could someone conclude he would be able to stay alive for a whole round on foot and deprive the team of a tank? Can you honestly say there will be maps with just one tank, or one tanker role/position? There are too many things going against locking players in the tanks, I could type a book, but I still havent seen one real example of how exiting breaks the game. Real tankers could exit their tanks when needed, it should be in game for obvious reasons.

 

[Fedorov]

No one is forcing you to get out. Stay inside all you want.. but at least having the option to get out is the more realistic, and yes, valuable option than not being able to get out at all.

if there is the option one will use it, then you get asynchronized, what do you do then?

Asynchronization? yes

fixed

 

[Das Bose]

People are entitled to their opinion. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them wrong.

They're only wrong if they disagree with me



Anyway, at this point in time, it's over 2 to 1 against bailing. So I think the "silent majority" is speaking their mind.

A little too hasty I feel. There are a quite a lot of RO players that are very disappointed at being locked into the tanks.

Being stuck in the tank removes a dynamic from the gameplay and to me, that's a bad thing.

It's very simple really, do you want more or less choice in the game? I want more

Edit: Yes, players jumping out of their tanks just as I'm about to blow them up is annoying, but I'd rather it was fixed with a decent animation to slow it down rather than unrealistically welding people into the tanks.

 

[dogbadger]

example: think a map similar to ogledow. i'm in ogledow as a tank commander (extra cap power) in an is2. my tracks are disabled. my tank if out of ammo. the germans are making a final push into the capzone and it's 50/50. i have 2 options: stay in the tank, die and lose the cap and match. OR unbutton the hatch, jump out, stay in the cap to hold it, try to fight off the attackers with my pistol/smg, and preserve victory.

obviously, the second choice is the logical one.

if you are in a cap zone with a tank that is damaged/ immobile but still has main gun and/or hull mg ammo, logically you would want to hang about to affect the capping outcome, and rightly that you should affect it because your tank is still a threat in this area.
if however your tank is out of ammo, it's RL influence on capping (whatever capping is in real life) would be limited anyway - at least no more than as a deterant(insofar as the enemy will not necessarily suss you are unarmed straightaway)
So i presume you can remain as a deterant, all the while still adding to the cap force, or scuttle the tank and re-enter in more effective condition.
I think these options are fair enough.

Because of the limited - at best - impact that bailed out crew of broken tanks must have had on battles in ww2, i don't think it's particularly appropriate that you should be able to affect battles in Ro simply by getting out and becoming an infantryman - or hiding somewhere for a bit.

 

[Mormegil]

Well, except for my viewpoint has been validated with an actual example of a scenario which happens in game (several in fact). I still have yet to see how letting tankers leave their tanks introduces all kinds of problems into RO and basically breaks the game.

I'm sorry, I thought those examples were already pretty clear:

1) Tanker on foot deprives their team of a tank and the resources of said tank (happened to me playing Hedgehog yesterday)
2) Tanker on foot looks pretty close to an enemy tanker, often leading to team kills and confusion (happened yesterday on Konigsplatz)
3) Tanker on foot slows down getting a new tank into combat if they're huffing it back to the tank spawn (I've seen this happen)
4) Tanker on foot leads to asynchronisity with the rest of the team when team tanking (happened to me yesterday on Konigsplatz and DerZooBunker)
5) Tanker on foot attacking an objective is unrealistic and gamey compared to reality (based on your example, I usually stick to my tank)
6) Tanker on foot popping out of tank before being hit blows (can be fixed with delay / animation) (happens on Arad all the time)
7) Tanker on foot with a pistol wouldn't really have the ability to hold an objective in real life, so shouldn't add to cap power in game
8) Tanker on foot requires coding and animating for TWI, delaying the game


Now how can we get those worms back in that can? I know, get rid of tankers on foot!

 

[Sensemann]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I don't have enough time to read the whole thread...

I think bailing out of a tank is needed. Many times it has happened to me that I am in the middle of a battle in a tank as gunner and I received a phone call. What I usually did is to jump out of the tank, get myself shot in order to free the position for one of my tankmates in order to give them the chance to switch to gunner if needed. Usually I was killed then and waited at the spawn for the next tank coming up.

I know that I should be able multi-tasking a call and playing a game, but come on, give me a break...

 

[REZ]

1) This is assuming there is only one tanker role for the map which doesnt exist in any map to date.

2) This is assuming the tanker uniforms will look exactly as they did in ROOST. Even if they do, teamkills happen regardless of uniform, this really isnt a good argument for locking tankers in their tanks.

3) Again, this is assuming there is only one tanker role, and it is also assuming the tanker would actually try to run all the way back to spawn instead of trying to link up with a friendly tank or help his infantry teammates closer to him.

4) No one is forced to leave a tank that they want to stay in. Your idea forces people to stay in a tank they may want to get out of.

5) Compared to what reality? Before soldiers are placed in tanks, they are trained to fight as infantry in accordance with basic soldiering. Tankers carried sidearms other than pistols for a reason; not only to defend themselves but in the event their tank became useless and they couldnt just 'go back to base' as some of you think they always had the option of doing.

6) Fixed with the proposed animation delay.

7) If an objective is empty, I dont see why one man couldnt hold that objective. If there are enemies in that objective the on-foot tanker wouldnt be taking the objective unless he was a Commander and his cap power was more than one single enemy. A tanker on foot can kill enemies, report positions, cap an empty objective and/or help to hold an objective, call arty if he is a Commander, jump in a different friendly tank if one comes by etc. etc.

8) As far as coding goes a tanker is merely an infantry soldier dressed in tanker garb carrying a pistol or sometimes a larger sidearm. There is no coding required. The only additional work would be the entering and exiting animations which should really be in the game anyway, I dont see how anyone could argue against having those.

You're trying to take depth away from the game by disallowing tankers to go on foot just because you perceive these non-issues as a can of worms..

 

[Grobut]

Apologies if this has been posted before. I don't have enough time to read the whole thread...

I think bailing out of a tank is needed. Many times it has happened to me that I am in the middle of a battle in a tank as gunner and I received a phone call. What I usually did is to jump out of the tank, get myself shot in order to free the position for one of my tankmates in order to give them the chance to switch to gunner if needed. Usually I was killed then and waited at the spawn for the next tank coming up.

I know that I should be able multi-tasking a call and playing a game, but come on, give me a break...

Tanks in RO2 will have a full AI crew, and you can occupy any position you want, so here's a simpler solution: Phone rings? Fecal urgency? jump to the Machinegunner position and let the AI take the helm for a few moments, and the tank should still be opperational, just short one MG.

 

[hockeywarrior]

Honestly, I think adding locked tanks would make RO:OST a much better game. I hate how people always bail right before you kill them in RO1. And then they run around the map hiding while they could be getting another tank to help the battle. It's even more annoying when you spawn as a tanker, but then all the tanks are gone. Then you have to sit there and wait for one. WTF? You're a tanker -- you should have a tank.

I'm just happy they're actually addressing this problem rather than keeping the silliness from the first game in the second. Tanking has always been a completely different game than infantry combat in RO, and I think keeping people in their tank really helps strengthen that. As a tanker, you really do need different skills than an infantryman, and as a tanker, you should stay with that role.

I'm only posting this because I am reeeeeeaaally tired of repeating myself. I'm going to start coming up with new reasons why I like the tank locking from now on, just to give this thread more variety.

 

[REZ]

I hate how people always bail right before you kill them in RO1.

This is the exact reason why this whole subject exists in the first place and I wish people would just concede to that fact. All the other nonsense of 'ineffectiveness' and 'asynchronicity' and 'gaminess' is just tacked on in an attempt to give it more validity; but those reasons are so flimsy and transparent to the fact that you all just hate it when people jump out of their tanks right before being killed. An animation will solve that problem.

It's even more annoying when you spawn as a tanker, but then all the tanks are gone.

Simple.. have tankers spawn in an active tank or have more available tanks at spawn then there are tanker roles (this would encourage solo tanking though, so you have to consider that).

 

[213]

that is not the reason. try again.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

Someone forgot to tell these Germans they aren't allowed to bail out of their tanks. Someone ban them.

YouTube - Battle for Cologne - tank duel

 

[[TW]schneidzekk]

Someone forgot to tell these Germans they aren't allowed to bail out of their tanks. Someone ban them.

Someone forgot to tell you that this is going to be a video game. Real life might have been slightly different. I bet the German uniforms were probably spot on though ;p .

 

[Floyd]

Someone forgot to tell these Germans they aren't allowed to bail out of their tanks. Someone ban them.

YOU TUBE VIDEO

And look how effective they were afterwards. (Notice one didn't quite make it out?) Did they help defend the capzone then? And the Allied commander at the beginning of the clip (you know, the one with no leg below the left knee), in RO I would imagine he would be deemed combat ineffective and respawned. He certainly wouldn't be running around hiding in the capzone either. As far as RO is concerned, he's dead. Bail = dead.

I don't have a problem with a killable animation of a tanker exiting his tank. I just have a problem with the current instant popping in and out of the tank for obvious reasons. Least of which is people bailing to avoid dieing from getting shelled.

But....
What would happen in RO2 when you bail from your tank? Do you now have AI running the tank you just bailed from? You hop/climb out, hide in the capzone while your AI tank protects you? What happens if you die while out of your tank? Do you respawn in a new tank and your other tank (now AI controlled) carry on as usual? What if they all die when you bail? Points against you? Or do they bail with you and follow you around blindly?

Lastly, has anyone said that scuttling a tank costs you any points or your life?

 

[Fedorov]

jump in a different friendly tank if one comes by etc. etc.

You really like opening cans of worms don't you?

All the other nonsense of 'ineffectiveness' and 'asynchronicity' and 'gaminess' is just tacked on in an attempt to give it more validity; but those reasons are so flimsy and transparent to the fact that you all just hate it when people jump out of their tanks right before being killed. An animation will solve that problem.

Asynchronicity is a real problem and no matter how much you say is not, wont make it disappear. It will screw up the whole class selection/spawn system.

 

[Mormegil]

1) This is assuming there is only one tanker role for the map which doesnt exist in any map to date.

You don't know that. Besides, what if there are suppose to be 4 tankers on a map, and 3 of the tankers are on foot? There goes 3/4 of your teams tanks.

2) This is assuming the tanker uniforms will look exactly as they did in ROOST. Even if they do, teamkills happen regardless of uniform, this really isnt a good argument for locking tankers in their tanks.

I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption the tank uniforms are based on the real tank uniforms. I very much doubt TWI would put in brightly colored uniforms to easily distinguish them. Sure friendly fire happens, as it did in real life. This is another reason that real armies don't field tankers as infantry.

3) Again, this is assuming there is only one tanker role, and it is also assuming the tanker would actually try to run all the way back to spawn instead of trying to link up with a friendly tank or help his infantry teammates closer to him.

See #1

4) No one is forced to leave a tank that they want to stay in. Your idea forces people to stay in a tank they may want to get out of.

See scuttle

5) Compared to what reality? Before soldiers are placed in tanks, they are trained to fight as infantry in accordance with basic soldiering. Tankers carried sidearms other than pistols for a reason; not only to defend themselves but in the event their tank became useless and they couldnt just 'go back to base' as some of you think they always had the option of doing.

Cite me a source where tankers went in as infantry every time they lost their tank. The fact is tankers are there to tank, not be weak infantry.

6) Fixed with the proposed animation delay.

Agreed, but you were asking for examples of issues. So I threw it in.

7) If an objective is empty, I dont see why one man couldnt hold that objective. If there are enemies in that objective the on-foot tanker wouldnt be taking the objective unless he was a Commander and his cap power was more than one single enemy. A tanker on foot can kill enemies, report positions, cap an empty objective and/or help to hold an objective, call arty if he is a Commander, jump in a different friendly tank if one comes by etc. etc.

Sure they can, in the ROHOS game. But a lot of that wasn't done in real life in WWII. They weren't suppose to go kill enemies on foot, as mentioned before. And jumping into a friendly tank is stupid, as it would already be fully crewed. If TWI wants to get people to act more realistically compared to WWII tactics, then this is a way to do it. If they want people to continue to "play the game" like a game, than the status quo would be fine.

8) As far as coding goes a tanker is merely an infantry soldier dressed in tanker garb carrying a pistol or sometimes a larger sidearm. There is no coding required. The only additional work would be the entering and exiting animations which should really be in the game anyway, I dont see how anyone could argue against having those.

No coding required? Really? It's not just animations that need to be done, it's also coding to go smoothly go from the scripted egress animation to standard first person animations. What if the ground level isn't the same each time, say if the tank is on a slope, or tilted. What if the egress point is blocked, or would lead to clipping? What about interruptible animations when the player is shot while doing the entrance or exit animation? How about coding for getting into a friendly tank? Will the player have to line up perfectly with the hatch to get into the entrance animation rail, or will the game have to move you to that position?

You're trying to take depth away from the game by disallowing tankers to go on foot just because you perceive these non-issues as a can of worms..

Obviously these issues don't bother you. They do bother me. By the way, these aren't my ideas, and I'm not trying to take this away from you. These are TWI ideas, which as far as I know are already implemented.

And just for the record, I don't really care if someone hops out of the tank right before I kill them. I'm satisfied I demolished a tank, rendering them combat ineffective. I typically MG them down within a couple of seconds anyway. On second thought, I'll let them live to deprive their team of a tank, unless they're in cap.