Forum Opinion on Tank Bailing Poll

[Grobut]

If my presence in the capzone is the only thing stopping the enemy from taking the last zone and winning the map - hell fuggin yes I'm valuable. If I can kill an enemy - I'm valuable. You guys need to stop closing your eyes to the value of a tanker outside of his tank.

No, you aren't, there is no way you are more usefull wearing a bright blue Jumpsuit and beeing armed only with a Pistol, than you are in a T34 providing covering fire for your team, and protecting them from the enemy's tank.

And if it's down to the last few second of the round, and you can't help your team because you let your tank get ruined, then the enemy deserves the win, they outplayed you.

 

[Mormegil]

..and you obviously arent seeing how being linked to your tank can be BAD for gameplay. Check the example bswearer gave. There are other scenarios I can think of where a tanker may need to get out of his tank and could still be useful to the team on foot; I'm sure you could too if you just tried.

Again, that's assuming tankers get capping points on foot as they do on Ostfront. Big assumption since as we know, tankers won't be on foot in the first place.

Secondly, we must remember "capping" and "capping points" are an abstraction of actual control of territory. When a real group of soldiers hold a real structure, there is not cap bar or cap power. We have to live with this because it's a game, and I can't think of too many other ways to represent capturing territory. With that in mind, having unmounted soldiers, who wouldn't be equipped or trained to hold territory on foot wouldn't be very helpful in holding a position. So what we see in Ostfront with tankers capping on foot is sort of "gaming the system." It's relying on the limits of the game scoring system to act unrealistically to win a match.

If my presence in the capzone is the only thing stopping the enemy from taking the last zone and winning the map - hell fuggin yes I'm valuable. If I can kill an enemy - I'm valuable. You guys need to stop closing your eyes to the value of a tanker outside of his tank.

Yes, sometimes a tanker with a pistol can save the day. But that's not how they were trained, or how it usually went. The main purpose of a tanker is to crew a tank. You also need to think about combined arms maps where most of the time, an unmounted tanker is a detriment since that means a tank is missing in action.

 

[REZ]

The way I see it, REZ and BSwearer want to be able to have the fun of tanking along with the flexibility and fun of capping / fighting as infantry

Then you're seeing it wrong. At this point, after some good examples have been made, intentionally I'm afraid. It certainly isnt my want to act as an infantry man if I dont have to, but if my tank is a goner, then I would like to stay alive and be useful to the team on foot and potentially be the one who helps keep the scales from tipping in the enemies favor. Or, I could just hit 'scuttle' and the round would end before I was able to drive my tank back to the action.

The only time I feel a tanker should be linked to his tank and unable to get out of it is on huge widespread tanker-only maps such as Krivoi, Black Day, Orel etc; because then it would serve no purpose to be outside of the tank. However, in urban maps where the tank is there as support for the infantry, it would be a mistake to force the tanker to be stuck inside of his tank because given the situation where his tank is disabled or about to go 'boom' he can still be useful to the team on foot as well as not deplete the reinforcement pool.. (again, think about the scenario bswearer posted, you really cant argue with a situation like that).

 

[EvilHobo]

Go down with the ship!

 

[Zetsumei]

Then you're seeing it wrong. At this point, after some good examples have been made, intentionally I'm afraid. It certainly isnt my want to act as an infantry man if I dont have to, but if my tank is a goner, then I would like to stay alive and be useful to the team on foot and potentially be the one who helps keep the scales from tipping in the enemies favor. Or, I could just hit 'scuttle' and the round would end before I was able to drive my tank back to the action.

Beside the current cap system in HOS, if you look at it realistically as a lone infantry man you should have no affect on the enemies capping the objective if the enemy is in a tank.

This is one of the reasons why I hope that the capsystem gets changed to some system where the actual person in control of the capzone obtains the cap. Not who got the most people hiding in the grass (everybodies favourite in the last cap of bdj).

I mean if you have a 6 rifleman in a flat field of grass, and the enemy got even one tank, then I'd say that the tank would be in control of the cap zone. I mean what can a rifleman do against a tank pretty much nothing.

Regarding the reinforcement story, I think it would be fun that if you press scuttle that the actual crew gets out of the tank and tries to get to a save place in their teams territory. If those bots survive walking to that spot the reinforcements won't be lost, else if they get shot or the tank gets blown up you loose those reinforcements.

 

[REZ]

Beside the current cap system in HOS, if you look at it realistically as a lone infantry man you should have no affect on the enemies capping the objective if the enemy is in a tank.

What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

 

[Mormegil]

However, in urban maps where the tank is there as support for the infantry, it would be a mistake to force the tanker to be stuck inside of his tank because given the situation where his tank is disabled or about to go 'boom' he can still be useful to the team on foot as well as not deplete the reinforcement pool.. (again, think about the scenario bswearer posted, you really cant argue with a situation like that).

I think people have given a very good counter-argument to that. You shouldn't have cap power, because you're not an infantry man, so your team looses. There, successfully argued against.


I'll assume you don't have a good argument why it's fine for the squad leader to play sniper and shirk their responsibilities. I've asked it like 3 or 4 times with no response.

 

[Fedorov]

If my presence in the capzone is the only thing stopping the enemy from taking the last zone and winning the map - hell fuggin yes I'm valuable. If I can kill an enemy - I'm valuable. You guys need to stop closing your eyes to the value of a tanker outside of his tank.

Tankers currently can't get out of the tank, so there is no mechanic implemented so any tanker can get in a "capzone" and "cap", so we are discussing a system that is pure theory with no base in real life.

The capping system is some sort of emulation of what in real life would be "conquering an area", and I don't think that in real life, a very underequiped person that doesn't belong to any squad is gonna do anything helpful towards that goal. You want to screw the whole system up to add a completely unrealistic feature?

Have a tank help your team by killing the enemies instead of having a useless person occupying some sort of space designed for a game mechanic to work in a certain way to meet an emulated condition of victory (possibility that doesn't even exist as is not possible now as a tanker) creating a lot of gameplay problems in the process.

so, for bailing out...
Gameplay: X
Realism: X

You guys just have to think outside the RO box. Then look at it from there and realize how bad the current system is.

 

[Mormegil]

Then you're seeing it wrong. At this point, after some good examples have been made, intentionally I'm afraid. It certainly isnt my want to act as an infantry man if I dont have to, but if my tank is a goner, then I would like to stay alive and be useful to the team on foot and potentially be the one who helps keep the scales from tipping in the enemies favor.

Then I stand corrected. Let me try again. You want the option to exit the tank, so you can help cap an objective when your tank is disabled.


The counter argument to that is, this didn't really happen much in real war, and most of the time in the game, you're more useful in a tank. So is it worth the gaminess, coding resources, delay in game development, and loss in team firepower (tank-wise) to implement this feature?

 

[REZ]

I think people have given a very good counter-argument to that. You shouldn't have cap power, because you're not an infantry man, so your team looses. There, successfully argued against.

So you've just made up a new mechanic on your own and thats how you're going to argue against a well made example based on how the game currently plays? Well done.

I'll assume you don't have a good argument why it's fine for the squad leader to play sniper and shirk their responsibilities. I've asked it like 3 or 4 times with no response.

I dont think its fine for a Squad leader to do that, and I also think making that type comparison to what we're talking about is like comparing apples and oranges. Going with the comparison the way you've worded it is like saying the tanker would go walking out of spawn with just his pistol and no tank, never even trying to play his role. What I'm saying is.. after your tank has been disabled or is otherwise worthless, you should then be able to continue to be a valuable soldier in the immediate by going on foot and doing what you can to help. In certain cases, which can frequently happen, your power to kill and cap can be extremely useful to the team, whereas 'scuttling' and having to drive all the way back to the action could seal the fate of your team.

So is it worth the gaminess, coding resources, delay in game development, and loss in team firepower (tank-wise) to implement this feature?

haha, nice try.

 

[NoxNoctum]

Beside the current cap system in HOS, if you look at it realistically as a lone infantry man you should have no affect on the enemies capping the objective if the enemy is in a tank.

This is one of the reasons why I hope that the capsystem gets changed to some system where the actual person in control of the capzone obtains the cap. Not who got the most people hiding in the grass (everybodies favourite in the last cap of bdj).

I mean if you have a 6 rifleman in a flat field of grass, and the enemy got even one tank, then I'd say that the tank would be in control of the cap zone. I mean what can a rifleman do against a tank pretty much nothing.

Regarding the reinforcement story, I think it would be fun that if you press scuttle that the actual crew gets out of the tank and tries to get to a save place in their teams territory. If those bots survive walking to that spot the reinforcements won't be lost, else if they get shot or the tank gets blown up you loose those reinforcements.

All these ideas are kickass! I like the idea of the bots running back to save on reinf.

And then if it's a gigantic tank map of course you would just press scuttle.

And I agree the capzone thing needs a rethink somehow, cause that situation you mentioned on BDJ is ALWAYS used.

 

[Fedorov]

your power to kill and cap can be extremely useful to the team

Just imagine this conversation from real life soldiers:

Damn our engine is down, lets abandon the tank and get into the capzone, we only need to step inside the area and kill one more guy to win the objective!

 

[Mormegil]

So you've just made up a new mechanic on your own and thats how you're going to argue against a well made example based on how the game currently plays? Well done.

Actually, it was based on Grobut's post. I just agree with him (emphasis mine).

No, you aren't, there is no way you are more usefull wearing a bright blue Jumpsuit and beeing armed only with a Pistol, than you are in a T34 providing covering fire for your team, and protecting them from the enemy's tank.

And if it's down to the last few second of the round, and you can't help your team because you let your tank get ruined, then the enemy deserves the win, they outplayed you.

I dont think its fine for a Squad leader to do that, and I also think making that type comparison to what we're talking about is like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm glad we agree on that. Now the issue is, if we can agree that a tanker is not really useful for holding a position without their tank compared to a properly equipped infantryman or a tanker in an actual tank, then the analogy is valid. The unmounted tanker is not doing their job of running a tank. I don't think we do agree on that though. You argue they can be useful. But our argument is, that's only in the context of the game cap mechanic. In reality, an unmounted tanker isn't that useful, yet in ROOST, they have the same cap ability as an infantryman. In other words, it's using the ROOST game rules in an unrealistic manner, that doesn't reflect what actual combined arms warfare looks like.

You're other argument on the topic was it's not the same thing because it only would happen when your tank gets disabled, and not right at the start. Well, earlier in the thread you stated you want to bail when your tank is disabled, or when it's on fire. That can happen a LOT (especially with the new highly detailed tanking system - suspension, optics, etc). So that would mean you would be spending LOTS of time out of your tank. That's a lot of time your team could be using a tank. To make it more of an apples to oranges comparison with the squad leader, what if the squad leader want towards cap, tossed their smokes, then decided to run back and play sniper? Not as bad, but still not ideal.

So is it worth the gaminess, coding resources, delay in game development, and loss in team firepower (tank-wise) to implement this feature?

haha, nice try.

Thanks I guess, but I didn't get an answer. Is it worth it?

 

[REZ]

Just imagine this coming from soldiers - Crap our engine is on fire! Quick! Press the scuttle button so we can magically start back 5 kilometers away in a brand new tank!

People who say that tankers simply got out of their tanks and walked back to wherever their closest headquarters was and got a new tank - i.e. fight another day as I read someone say - are smokin' some heavy stuff. You dont think tankers were ever in a situation where they escaped a certain deathtrap of a tank and were forced to fight on foot? Cmon.

 

[Mormegil]

Just imagine this coming from soldiers - Crap our engine is on fire! Quick! Press the scuttle button so we can magically start back 5 kilometers away in a brand new tank!

That's exactly what happens with infantry in non-countdown mode. Once you're combat ineffective, you're dead to the team.

People who say that tankers simply got out of their tanks and walked back to wherever their closest headquarters was and got a new tank - i.e. fight another day as I read someone say - are smokin' some heavy stuff. You dont think tankers were ever in a situation where they escaped a certain deathtrap of a tank and were forced to fight on foot? Cmon.

Fight for their lives? Sure. Fight for the objective? Not so much.

 

[Blue Orchestra]

I'm not a person in a tank, I am the tank.

 

[Reise]

Fight for their lives? Sure. Fight for the objective? Not so much.

And that's if they managed to not get vaporized by a HEAT round, or roasted alive by a fire inside their metal bucket.

 

[SolitarioSoldat]

I'm not a person in a tank, I am the tank.

lol n1:IS2:

 

[Fedorov]

You argue they can be useful. But our argument is, that's only in the context of the game cap mechanic. In reality, an unmounted tanker isn't that useful, yet in ROOST, they have the same cap ability as an infantryman. In other words, it's using the ROOST game rules in an unrealistic manner, that doesn't reflect what actual combined arms warfare looks like.

This pretty much sums it all up

 

[REZ]

That's exactly what happens with infantry in non-countdown mode. Once you're combat ineffective, you're dead to the team.

..and there's a big part of my point.. you arent ineffective on foot as a tanker, you may be less effective because you arent surrounded by armor loaded down with heavy weapons, but you arent ineffective. You can still help to cap/stop a cap, and you can still kill. If you're a tank commander, you can still call arty!

But our argument is, that's only in the context of the game cap mechanic.

That's exactly where my arguments are based. They are based on how the capping system in RO plays right now, and how it seems to still play in HoS based on the videos we've seen. You guys act as though the capping system has changed to something else by giving these arguments of 'ineffectiveness' and whether or not a tanker has capping power or if a rifleman can weigh the same in a capzone as a tank etc, etc.. None of that means anything if the capping system is the same. So are you arguing for a different capping system at the same time as locking tankers in their tanks?

A single rifleman weighs the same as a regular tanker while in a tank as far as the game is concerned. Should it really be that way in game? That's a different thread altogether and has nothing to do with locking tankers in their tanks.

You're other argument on the topic was it's not the same thing because it only would happen when your tank gets disabled, and not right at the start. Well, earlier in the thread you stated you want to bail when your tank is disabled, or when it's on fire. That can happen a LOT (especially with the new highly detailed tanking system - suspension, optics, etc). So that would mean you would be spending LOTS of time out of your tank

I also advocated for a 20-30 second exit/enter animation for tankers, so this would effectively limit the tankers ability to escape going down with the ship. It wouldnt happen like it does now where you just pop out. You would more than likely be killed inside of your ride, but having the option to exit should be there. It would be unrealistic if it wasnt there.

Thanks I guess, but I didn't get an answer. Is it worth it?

The reason I said 'nice try' was because none of this would need to happen the way you make it sound. First, there's nothing gamey about being able to leave your tank, in fact it would be gamey if you were locked inside of it and your only option is to 'scuttle' aka suicide. Next, exiting tanks is already there, it wouldnt need to be 'coded'. They would only need to add an animation for exiting and entering, and yes, I think it would be worth it.