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Co-Operative Tanking Guide V1

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  • Co-Operative Tanking Guide V1

    I. Introduction to Co-Operative Tanking.


    Red Orchestra is realism focused World War II First-Person-Shooter. One of the key elements of WW2 was tank warfare and I think Red Orchestra does a beautiful job in simulating the conditions and problems that tank crews encountered in reality.

    One of those most prominent problems is communication. However, while in reality there is a chain of command, authority and established channels of communication, in a game there are only players and their own self-discipline. That is to say, to co-operatively tank with a lacking approach to the frustrations that can occur due to carelessness is to cause problems (consider the many rants about stupid drivers).

    Another problem that has to be overcome is trust. A commander must trust his driver, who must trust the gunner (if present) and gunner must trust the commander (due to each and everyone performing a select function and each and everyone having a limited view) and so forth.

    Therefore, before you even consider co-operative tanking, you must be self-discplined, good at communicating and trustworthy.

    I illustrate some problems that occur if tankers are not of the above:
    • Example 1:

      Driver - Moves forward as ordered by the tank commander.
      Commander - Spots a tank on the left flank. Orders a stop.
      Driver - Stops, but decides its a good idea to angle the tank so as to prevent direct armor penetration on the side.
      Commander - Takes aim through the cannon, aims, fires and watches as the gun sights are moved due to the drivers altering of position and misses.
      Event - Enemy tank returns fire and achieves the first hit (which can often be a kill).

      So that shows, that while your intentions may be good, your effect is detrimental. Disicipline would denote that the driver does exactly as told and nothing more.

    • Example 2:

      Driver - Moves forward as ordered by tank commander.
      Commander - Spots a tank on the left flank, Orders a stop.
      Driver - Stops as ordered.
      Commander - Takes aim through cannon.
      Machine Gunner - Says "Move Forward."
      Driver - Moves forward as ordered, but not by the commander.
      Commander - Fires and misses.
      Event - Enemy tank returns fire and achieves the first hit (which can often be a kill).

      So in this case, the problem is that the gunner had perverted the communications of the team and caused a problem. Communications are therefore flawed in this case

    • Example 3:

      Driver - Moves forward as ordered by tank commander.
      Commander - Spots a tank on the left flank, orders a stop.
      Driver - Continues driving, ignores the commander and believes an objective ahead of them is higher priority (point capping).
      Commander - Cannot aim or fire effectively.
      Event - Enemy tank returns fire and achieves the first hit (which can often be a kill).

      So in this case, trust is somewhat in question, as the driver believes the commanders priorities are not as important as the priorities of the driver. However, had the driver stopped, they may still be alive to "cap that point."

    And of course, the classic example.
    • Example 4

      Driver - Decides to do whatever the hell he wants.
      Commander - Can't do anything at all.
      Machine Gunner - Has fun trying to hit random enemies that pop into his FoV (Field of View).
      Event - Enemy tanks laugh their *** off, take aim and achieve the first hits (which can often be a kill).

      I hope you see my point. So please note that for the rest of my document assumes that you will use its standardised rules and will listen to your tank commander, etc.

    II. The Roles Of Individual Tank Crewmen


    Commander

    The commander of a tank is de facto eyes and ears of the crew. While every other crewman will have limited FoV, the commander is the spotter, main gunner and the tactician of the tank.

    Responsibilities-
    • Spotting enemies.

      For example, identifying the type of enemy tanks (so to decided how to defeat it, or whether it is too strong to defeat), weakpoints, etc.

    • Planning the tanks route.

      For example, planning flanking maneuvers, concealed movement and cover from fire, deciding ideal stationary locations and choosing objectives.

    • Executing on the spot tactics.

      For example, tank angle maneuvers, moving in and out of cover, prioritising enemies, knowing when to retreat.

    • Self-preservation

      For example, do not expose yourself in combat so as to render the tank commanderless or jump out the tank "for a better look".

    • Main Gunnery of the tank.

      For example, ranging of targets, selection of round types, identifying weak points of enemy tanks, use of the machine gun, aiming, shooting and ultimately destroying the enemy.

    Driver

    The driver is master of the primary movement of a tank. The driver, while controlling a lesser degree of factors, can often determine the success or failure of any tank crew by his actions.

    Responsibilities -
    • Spotting enemies in FoV.

      For example, alerting the commander to the location of an enemy (usually the front due to FoV).

    • Executing commanders movement orders (precisely).

      For example, moving only when ordered, as ordered and refraining from any slight changes to that order.

    • Executing on the spot movement decisions (such as effectively and intelligently negotiating terrain).

      For example, moving around a terrain object effectively so as not to snag on it, negotiating terrain objects as close as possible to the original order, movement with awareness of concealment and cover from fire.

    • Self-preservation.

    Machine Gunner

    The machine gunner supplements a tanks firepower against infantry. While not all tanks have a machine gunner, when they do, the gunner can be a potent weapon to prevent anti-tank operatons by the enemy, and another set of eyes.

    Responsibilities -
    • Spotting enemies in FoV.

    • Machine Gunnery.

      Quite simply, shooting infantry targets.

    • Executing on the spot target prioritising (such as anti-tank infantry first before non-threatening enemies).

    • Holding fire when ordered.

      For example, not spraying the machine gun (ineffectively) at armored targets only to attract unecessary attention....

    III. Built-In Voice Communication


    Now to the bulk of this document. In order establish good and effective co-operative tanking communication, I decided to provide a set of standardised rules to the voice coms in order promote and show that effective tanking can be done with the voice coms.

    As far as I'm concerned, these are the only (or only ones of importance) voice commands to be used.
    • "Move Forward."
    • "Stop."
    • "Move Back."
    • "Go Left."
    • "Go Right."
    • "Forward 5 Metres."
    • "Back 5 Metres."
    • "Turn Left A Little."
    • "Turn Right A Little."
    • "Enemy in Front."
    • "Enemy Left Flank."
    • "Enemy Right Flank."
    • "Enemy Behind US."
    • "Enemy Infantry Close."
    • "Loaded."
    • "Acknowledged."
    • "Negative."
    • "We're Burning!"
    • "Get Out!"

    I will take each in turn and try to cover them in as much depth as possible. They are split into 3 sections.

    COMMANDS

    Tactical Note: Since all commands are given by the commander, the crew should take trust in the commander and his orders. Every order has a reason, but a reason can not always be given. Have faith.
    • "Move Forward."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      Accelerate the tank up to (but necessarily) full speed without turning left or right at all. If an obstacle presents itself to a direct forward course, negotiate it as well as possible and as close as possible to the original forward course. When possible, retain that forward movement as if the obstacle never existed. Anything that is traversible is not considered an obstacle (such as a hill, or shallow water). If the tank is sitting on a hill, and cannot accelerate up it, negotiate it as well as possible as ift he hill was an obstacle.

    • "Stop."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      With regards to movement:

      Decelerate the tank till it stops moving in any direction completely. Do so without altering the direction the tank is facing. If the tank is accelerating at full or a high speed, stop as soon as possible, but if the stopping position is exposed or seems "wrong", do not alter it. Quite simply, just STOP. This command should not be considered a chained command (i.e. if you are told to move forward then go left, cease those orders and stop immediately as best as possible) and it overides absolutely every other command. The stop command may be used as much as possible to affirm an order as completed.

      Possible meaning if the machine gunner is firing:

      Cease fire.

    • "Move Back."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      Accelerate, in reverse, the tank up to (but not necessarily) full reverse speed without turning left or right. If an obstacle should present itself to a direct reversing movement, stop the tank and consider the order completed (await further instructions). Anything that is traversible is not considered an obstacle. If the tank is sitting on a hill, and cannot reverse up it, negotiate it as well as possible as ift he hill was an obstacle. Never turn the tank more than 90 degrees in any direction from the starting position while doing this (as you may expose weak points to enemy fire).

    • "Go Left."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      While continuing any existing actions, such as moving forward, turn the tank 90 degrees left and consider this your new "current course" (be it forward or backward) and apply the same negotiation rules. Do not deliberately attempt to follow unatural terrain (such as roads) when executing this order (as this may expose the tank). While moving backwards, this order means hit the turn left control (therefore you will end up facing right). It does not mean reverse the tank to face left.

    • "Go Right"

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      While continuing any existing actions, such as moving forward, turn the tank 90 degrees right and consider this your new "current course" (be it forward or backward) and apply the same negotiation rules. Do not deliberately attempt to follow unatural terrain (such as roads) when executing this order (as this may expose the tank). While moving backwards, this order means hit the turn right control (therefore you will end up facing right). It does not mean reverse the tank to face right.

    • "Forward 5 Metres."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      Overides any existing orders (such as moving forward). Move the tank forward from the starting position 5 metres (for estimation purposes, 5 metres will be regarded as 5 infantry soldiers lying prone in the single file head to toe). The starting position is considered the moment previous actions are ceased (for example, when moving backward, the moment the tank begins moving forward is considered the starting position and when moving forward, the moment the order is given, is considered the starting position. Apply negotiation rules (even if you end up around the side of an obstacle).

    • "Back 5 Metres."

      Overides any existing orders (such as moving forward). Move the tank backward from the starting positon 5 metres (for estimation purposes, 5 metres will be regarded as 5 infantry soldiers lying prone in the single file head to toe). The starting position is considered the moment previous actions are ceased (for example, when moving backward, the moment the tank begins moving forward is considered the starting position and when moving forward, the moment the order is given, is considered the starting position. Should an obstacle stop the tank, consider the order completed.

    • "Turn Left A Little."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      While continuing any existing actions, such as moving forward, turn the tank 45 degrees left and consider this your new "current course" (be it forward or backward) and apply the same negotiation rules. When ordered when the tank is stationary, remain as close as to the starting position as possible, and turn the tank 45 degrees left. If an obstacle prevents the turning, consider the order completed when turned as left as possible.

    • "Turn Right A Little."

      Crewman Usage - Commander

      Standardised Meaning -

      While continuing any existing actions, such as moving forward, turn the tank 45 degrees right and consider this your new "current course" (be it forward or backward) and apply the same negotiation rules. When ordered when the tank is stationary, remain as close as to the starting position as possible, and turn the tank 45 degrees right. If an obstacle prevents the turning, consider the order completed when turned as right as possible.

    ALERTS

    Tactical Note: All alerts should be followed immediately by self-preservation tactics, even if it limits the view of every crew member. In some cases, e.g. against infantry, evasive maneuvers maybe used. All in all, it is up to the commander.
    • "Enemy In Front."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      There is an enemy tank in front of the tank, with the front of the tank being considered a 90 degrees "fan" or "FoV" from the centre point of the tank facing towards the tanks front. The enemy tanks elevation may be higher or lower. Infantry is not considered for this alert. If the enemy is sitting on the estimated cut off point between the Right and Left FoV of the tank, use the Right or Left alert instead. The enemy tank may be a significant distance ahead. If said, this alert does not mean "Stop" but maybe followed by it.

    • "Enemy Left Flank."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      The enemy is left of the tank, with the left being considered being a 90 degrees "fan" or "FoV" from the centre point of the tank facing towards the tanks left. The enemy tanks elevation may be higher or lower. Infantry is not considered for this alert. If the enemy is sitting on the estimated cut off point between Front/Back and Left FoV of the tank, use this command instead. The enemy tank may be a significant distance ahead. If said, this alert does not mean "Stop" but maybe followed by it.

    • "Enemy Right Flank."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      The enemy is right of the tank, with the right being considered being a 90 degrees "fan" or "FoV" from the centre point of the tank facing towards the tanks right. The enemy tanks elevation may be higher or lower. Infantry is not considered for this alert. If the enemy is sitting on the estimated cut off point between Front/Back and Right FoV of the tank, use this command instead. The enemy tank may be a significant distance ahead. If said, this alert does not mean "Stop" but maybe followed by it.

    • "Enemy Behind Us."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standarised Meaning -

      The enemy is behind the tank, with the rear being considered being a 90 degrees "fan" or "FoV" from the centre point of the tank facing towards the tanks rear. The enemy tanks elevation may be higher or lower. Infantry is not considered for this alert. If the enemy is sitting on the estimated cut off point between the Right or Left FoV of the tank, use the Right or Left alert instead. The enemy tank may be a significant distance ahead. If said, this alert does not mean "Stop" but may be followed by it.

    • "Enemy Infantry Close."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      There is or maybe enemy infantry close by. The direction may be determined by who says it. The alert may be used in response to light arms fire or anti-tank fire used against the tank, in which case, the direction by the direction of the fire itself. In general, it is best to limit the meaning and usage to only real threats (such as anti-tank fire and demolition charges, perhaps grenade fire by lighter tanks). However, in all cases, self-preservation is even more essential when infantry is nearby, so if any crewman are exposed, alert them.

    • "Loaded."

      Crewman Usage - Commander, Machine Gunner.

      Standardised Meaning -

      The next round or magazine has been loaded in one of my weapons. This includes changing of rounds for the main gun.

    MISCELLANEOUS

    Tactical Note: Miscellaneous voice commands are special commands. They, like above, all have specific uses.
    • "Acknowledged."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      Quite simply, yes. By the commander, it can mean confirmation of a enemy tank kill (usually obvious by the kill text of the game). Use as often as possible in order to affirm the confidence of the entire crew that your still in the team.

    • "Negative."

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      I cannot execute that order due to variables beyond my control. Extreme obstacles may be an example, such as spawn areas or the edge of the map. Extreme variables may also be a reason, such as tank tracks being destroyed, the engine damaged beyond use. Never use because you disagree with an action.

    • "We're Burning!"

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      One of the key components of this tank has been damaged, such as engine or tracks. May also mean the tank is in "red" status. May also mean 'this tank is mashed, we may need to get another one soon.'

    • "Get Out!"

      Crewman Usage - All

      Standardised Meaning -

      Abandon the tank and regroup. May also mean 'We're mashed, get the hell out of this tank!' or 'The next hit is going to kill us.' Usually followed by a sudden explosion and a respawn.

    IV. Tactics

    Tank warfare is a very complex issue, much like infantry warfare. There are a multitude of factors to consider even in the most simple direct 1 on 1 tank engagement. In order to split this issue up into individual understandable elements of tank warfare, this topic will be covered in the following groups:
    • Gunnery & Firepower
    • Armor & Positioning
    • Mobility & Movement
    • Infantry & Artillery

    GUNNERY & FIREPOWER

    Every tank is an armored platform, armed with several weapons to cause destruction to the enemy. All the tanks in Red Orchestra have a main gun and usually a turret mounted machine gun (depending on the tank). Some also have a frontside machine gun.

    Main Gun

    The main gun is the primary weapon of any tank and comes in different varieties depending on the tank in question. For example, the Russian T-60 light tank uses a 20mm automatic cannon as the main gun while most other tanks utilise large caliber main guns, such as the German Panzerkampfwagen V G "Panther" which uses a 75mm gun, capable of defeating the heaviest Russian tanks.

    For all their inherent problems, bonuses and employments, there are common rules that should be applied to using each main gun.

    Considering Gravity -

    As with any gun, be they firearms, tank guns or artillery batteries, as the projectile (be it a shell or bullet) travels out of the weapon it was fired from, as the distance from the weapon increases, the projectile will begin to lose height dramatically due to gravity, friction and so forth playing on it. Given that tank shells are steel canisters of death made to penetrate and destroy enemy tin cans of death, they are hardly aerodynnamic and look nothing like a plane.

    Therefore to hit a target the gunner must consider that as the distance to the target increases he must compensate by aiming higher or adjusting his gun sights to fit the range to target. Too much or too little and you could end up shooting your shell over the enemy or into the ground short of him. Failing to achieve the first hit means that the enemy can take the initiative, especially if his first round damages you.

    Considering Reload Time -

    Different tanks have different reload times on the main gun. For example, the Russian IS-2, due to the size of the shell used, had a painfully slow average reload time of 30 seconds due to the shell having to be loaded in 2 seperate parts (projectile and charge) - painful denoting that the reload time is a huge window of oppurtunity for the enemy to fire at you, flank you or take cover.

    That said, some artillery pieces such as the Sturmgeschutz III "StuG", have considerably faster reload times than (average 12 seconds for the StuG). Note: The StuG is classed as an Assault Gun by Red Orchestra, but is still considered a tank in this context.

    Therefore, it is important to consider the reload time on the main gun and to pick the target, the angle of fire and the shot wisely. In some cases, if your not careful, the enemy can get 3 shots off for every shot you fire! As a general rule of thumb, as the caliber and of your main gun increases, so does the reload time.

    Considering Firepower -

    Sometimes the main gun of your tank can destroy an enemy tank in a single hit. Sometimes it is incapable of defeating the enemy tank from your selected firing position. This can be due to a number of factors, but in general, it is because of the armor of the target is great enough that your tanks firepower cannot penetrate (or damage) the armor.

    The strongest armor of a tank is the front, followed by the side armor, then finally rear armor. It can often take 2 hits to destroy a tank from the side and front, but only 1 hit from the rear. With that in mind, the general rule is as the heavier the enemy armor becomes and the lesser the caliber of your main gun becomes, the more you should consider flanking or outmaneuvering the enemy before firing. Fortunately, lighter caliber tanks are also more maneuverable and fire faster than than heavier tanks usually.

    Machine Gun

    Most main guns are armed with secondary machine gun to supplement firepower against infantry. There may also be a third machine gun in the front of the hull. Like the main gun, the machine gun also suffers from bullet drop, so the machine gunner may also have to angle to hit long range targets. This problem is slightly prevented by the tracers from the machine gun. Also, because the machine is a fully automatic weapon, it is "easier" to adjust the aim.

    There is also a reload time on the machine gun. The reload time is the time taken to load another belt/magazine into the machine gun, obviously much shorter than that of a main gun, but a reload time nonetheless, and a window of oppurtunity for anti-tank infantry to close in.

    The firepower of the machine is extremely limited in the context of tanks. The only things it can defeat are infantry. However, that said, it is excellent for killing exposed infantry who are in vehicles (such as commanders, drivers, etc), provided it does not expose the tank or draw too much attention. In general, a dead target can't give much attention, so it is wise to go by that standard of gunnery.

    [To be continued]

    -End of Document-
    Last edited by =HighXplosive=; 08-25-2006, 02:25 PM. Reason: Clarity and errors in text.
    [i]One equal-temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.[/i]
    -Ulysses, Alfred Lord Tennyson

  • #2
    wowsa! nice first post!! (nicely written, important stuff, for sure).

    Comment


    • #3
      /Stuck

      Just a little hint, it would help readability to use Indents and Lists, since this makes a good (though of course long considering the Complexity of the subject) Post easier to read.
      Steam-Name: Tank-Boy-Ken

      Comment


      • #4
        Yep understood. I'll format it better for version 2 . Meanwhile I'll try and edit it in the post itself to better clarity.

        EDIT: I formatted the entire post.
        Last edited by =HighXplosive=; 08-22-2006, 04:12 PM. Reason: More info.
        [i]One equal-temper of heroic hearts,
        Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
        To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.[/i]
        -Ulysses, Alfred Lord Tennyson

        Comment


        • #5
          Awsome post man, very well done, thank you. All tankers should read this.
          [I]"But courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility."
          -Erwin Rommel
          [/I]

          Comment


          • #6
            i noticed that more oftenly the driver spots the enemy tanks first

            and also when in the tiger, due to its slow turret traverse speed it is best that the driver automatically rotates the tank to face the enemy ( unless the tank is within 11 and 1 hours. i found that this works best on the field.

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            • #7
              hi highxplosive m8,

              wow long post, and fair esp. to newbies - me being a driver - I agree with the scenarios if in a standard situation - however 9/10 it me who spots not just one tank but any others arpproaching whilst battling the 1st tank - and antitankers (who i try pop myself out the tank -mmm... mebbe not always the best way perhaps) - my advice is this:

              the tank commander - is the gunner - who very often has his eye on the sight - decides with driver 1st which approach to take to a cap or enemy - then angle your gun either @ 11am or 1pm and leave it to the driver to set you up - Esp. in a tiger. - the gunner usually focusses on the tank the driver is focussing on the best approach- so teamwork is the key.. 11 or 1 are the two angles MORE likely to offer angle protection - not always the case - but will work more often than not - {as per seppdietr's post above}

              As HighXplosive knows, in case of doubt - [Splat]=Superfly, [Splat]=Loki-Stuart and [Splat]=Stuckey and i would be most happy to prove the point

              However not an attempt to detract from your post m8 - more to help -

              You being one of the best teamplayers we have on Splat-

              Duck

              no I mean [FONT=Impact]DUCK[/FONT]
              Last edited by [Splat]DuckofDeath; 10-25-2006, 10:02 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                It can happen that your commander is a newbe...then you must command the tank..
                I presume you mean command from the driver's seat - an inexperienced tanker shouldn't really be made to go below...poor driving usually means blown up quick.
                I find it easier to suggest when and where to aim at the enemy, and influence it with my positioning, than to explain the business of deflection/angles etc. It's best to demonstate it; in an exchange when the shells are bouncing off you can use that time to modestly point out its down to your supreme positioning....
                We all know good driving makes gunning easy(-ier)
                I just make sure I ask gunner to request and wait for me to slam on the anchors before he fires, though after you get used to each other and find a rhythm it's less necessary.

                I agree that drivers will often spot an enemy before the commander, but if my driver alerts me to targets i still cant help feeling like a bit of a mug.
                Most important thing to remember is that the best tankers dont get upset with a teammate's lack of ability - as long as the guy is trying they should be helped out. Gotta take the rough with the smooth on pub servers.
                sigpic

                greatergoodgames

                Comment


                • #9
                  Good points and well written.

                  When team tanking the driver often is far more valuable to the fight than the commander/gunner. Often the Commander, especially new ones, remains locked in the turret with only the site to look out of.

                  I find when I am driver I usually spot the target far more often than the commander. When I am commander I spot more than the driver (open hatch and binocs with the turret slewed tot he expected flank fire will come from, 11 or 1.

                  When I am driving and spot the enemy or am told where he is and to stop I more often than not slew the tank while stopping. It is a fair bet, if the tank is lined up on you, that it is going to shoot first. I would rather set up for the bounce to survive. With a good crew the commander will expect this to happen.
                  Regarding Col. Tigh on Battlestar Galactica...

                  [I]The man needs to be locked in a glass case that says "Break in Case of Cylon Attack."[/I]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    2 ITEMS OF DISCUSSION---

                    FIRST ITEM-

                    Regarding 'angling the hull':

                    While it is true that angling your hull will definitely reduce your chances of taking a fatal hit, the BEST way to reduce those chances is to NOT get hit in the first place!

                    How to accomplish this? Most of you know this already, but not everyone practices getting into a 'hull down' firing position. The ideal HD position is one in which the driver can't see ahead (meaning the hull is completely behind cover (preferably a non-destructible terrain item!) and the gunner has a clear field of fire over the berm or hilltop or what have you. All the enemy should see- if he spots you- is your main gun and cupola.

                    How to work a HD position? If you're in a spot where backing a few feet will completely hide you, you're golden- once the gunner fires, the driver can back up during reloading to reduce any incoming rounds from hitting. Once the driver hears the 'CLANK' of the breechblock he can pull back up into position; if the gunner hasn't moved the main gun, he should be aiming almost exactly at teh previous spot. (If you can work a position where the Gunner can unbutton and look over the obstruction with the tank still covered, so much the better to keep an eye on what's out there- the same if you work in partnership with one or more other tanks; somebody up watching while others are reloading or adjusting fire.)

                    It goes without saying that sooner or later the enemy WILL find you; in that case be prepared to 'bug out' to an alternate firing position when you start taking near-hits or hits. If you start getting hits on your hull, you're too exposed anyway- or you've been flanked!

                    It pays to pay attention to various points on each map; Arad has some good HD positions, as does Black Day. Orel has decent ones as well; most of these are up on the Heights areas, though. Ogledow has a few, but not many.

                    One point to remember, though, especially in some tanks with limited main gun depression (mainly IS-2, Tiger, and KV-1), is to pick a HD position with a VERY gentle slope leading to the firing point. I've rolled into a point that I KNEW was good with a T-34/85 only to find that an IS-2's gun- even fully depresed- will still point into the sky.

                    It takes some practice to properly use HD, but once you get the hang of it (again, you more experienced folks already know this) you'll find yourself taking far fewer hits and dishing many more out to the enemy. It can be done as a one-man operation, but it's far more effective when a driver and gunner work together to deliver some rounds downrange.

                    SECOND ITEM-

                    Regarding Drivers:

                    For some, RO tanking is ALL about putting a killing round onto an enemy tank; for others it's the fun of driving the tank itself that is the attraction. However, regardles of how good a driver one may be, the fact remains that without having the ability to kill the enemy, the tank is just one big noisy target.

                    How to become an effective killing machine? For starters, tanks need to be crewed the way they were intended- with at least two people, a driver and gunner. Hopefully, for our purposes, they will both have a headset with mic AND speak the same language!

                    In any case, DRIVERS LISTEN: Do your Gunners a favor and don't twist and turn so much out there- when you're on an approach to the fight as on Orel, pull your map up, turn inthe direction of the bridge you want to cross or the cap zone you want, hit the gas and HANDS OFF for a while. The tank WILL drive itself to that point without your dodging every roll in the terrain or stand of bushes that pops up. This doesn't mean to not keep a sharp eye on what's ahead; you may very well need to turn if the enemy gets a bead on you or the tactical situation changes.

                    By traveling in more-or-less straight lines (when approriate) you provide a more stable platform for your Gunner to work with. Some prefer to fire from a short halt, while others prefer (in closer quarters) to fire while on the move. Either way, don't twist and turn the tank so YOU can see what's going on; if you have to turn do it ONLY to give the gunner a better shot. It just goes with the territory that driver's dont' get to see all the shoot-em-up action all the time, and trying to do so only possibly places your tank in danger if you're not careful.

                    I personally like both driving and gunning, but if I'm with someone I've not crewed with before I prefer to drive as I know I can at least get them in a decent enough firing position. New drivers tend to 'fidget' too much and have a habit of moving TOO much when it's totally unecessary- oftentimes ruining a perfect killing shot I've had lined up on that Tiger over there. (Yeah, the one that just spotted us because my driver decided he wanted to see the Tiger for himself and broke cover).

                    And drivers PLEASE I can't stress enough- LISTEN TO THE TANK COMMANDER. He's in the hot seat and it's his responsibility to effectively employ the tank to kill the enemy. If he says move forward- move forward! When he says stop, that means STOP right there; hit the brakes and don't move until he says otherwise, unless you already have action drills worked out. If you think you've got what it takes to be a good Tank Commander, by all means go for it- but until then, be a good driver and help the TC as much as you can. Practice and CREW PRACTICE pays off multiple dividends in-game, believe me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nice post. We have some smart people here, it seems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have to say

                        I have to say that a good one man tank can easly clean the guts of a crew-tank. The reason is that the action inside the tank is not realistic. As you know one can exit and enter a tank in mere seconds, rather than having to climb in and out. In the same way one can change from driver to gunner with the push of a botton, instead of having to crawl around. I am not saying the AVERAGE one man tank can take out a crew, but I am saying a skilled, and practiced tanker can. Of course he suffers from certain limitations - like not being able to drive and chew gum at the same time (load). But a skilled tanker plans for that weakness and works around it. In long range firing one man does about as good as two in a tank fight. In short range firing a one man tanker builds on his ability to better coordinate the tank's movements. With one brain you don't hear: "Nooo, stop....Stop!...Go back...turn...no the other way! He's over there! No aim that way!" And there is a lot less fighting and name calling inside a one man tank.

                        Now this is not realistic I know! But since Red Orc does not have real movement inside the tank, it means a well coordinated guy can with skill and planning wipe out crewed tanks.

                        But there is one more advantage to single man tanks: when your team is low it is nice having a larger footprint of armor on the field than having a tiny one. having 3 two man tanks is not as effective as having 6 one man tanks. Personally as things now stand in Red Orc I prefer team players who can take on the one man tank role and do it well.

                        I find that crewed tanks move around slowly, are too easily predicted, and tend to sit around like block houses through most of the game. One man tanks on the other hand tend to act like real crews trained by a real military and one thing you can count on about a one man tank - its crew is always obeying its captain like a well oiled team!

                        AFTER swirling around through a long ditch, appearing as if out of no where, comeing to a sudden stop in just the perfect place for the gunner, this Russian tank takes out the Tiger from its blind spot.


                        and I did it all by my little old self - but when I have crewed with others they would be crying like a stuck hound as I drove through the ditch, behind enemy lines, and be trying to fire at all the wrong moments.

                        In fact the proof IS IN YOUR PUDDING. [FONT=Arial]Look at the massive Standard Operational Procedure you have written up and posted about HOW ITS DONE in 75 easy steps!!!!! All we have to do is memorize this and keep sticky post-its glued to our screen to do this. Or, I can run circles around your tank with no written S.O.P., which in combat I often do. I love listening to the chatter of crewed-block-houses as they slowly huff and puff along like some WWI tank of old.

                        Actually crewed tanks were built because of the limitations in of what was possible for controls and reloading of guns. It would be a bit like putting 3 to 5 men in a fighter plane because control systems were lacking. Obviously when nations can work out a tank where one man can man it and automatically reload and aim the gun - the day of the crewed tank will be over. And in Red Orc, that day has not quite, but it has almost arrived. With the Z-key ejection seat I can drive up, blast a tank from its rear, hop out and polish it off with a panzerfaust all before the crew inside the enemy tank gets their tongues untangled from one another.

                        Looking at your hefty 3 pound list of do's and don't for the crewed tank it struck me that maybe you could get some college to offer a degree in it. The BS in proper crewing of Red Orc tanks.

                        P.S. But I will admit that I WILL be blown away, the day Red Orc adds in real movement times or delays for movement inside the tanks. At that time, the day of the one man tank will be finished for good. And it will be a bit more realistic. On that day I may sign up for your class of the 3 pound list.
                        [/FONT]
                        Last edited by kartasik; 11-29-2006, 06:06 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How to make crewed tanks deadly killers

                          There is a way crewed tanks can become deadly killers. The crew must practice together often, and the gunner MUST learn how to shoot accurately on the move in split seconds. The driver should be trained at such times to drive medium speed with no turning. Such a team would be deadly. Also one of the crew must load up on panzerfausts if a supply point is in the game. Such a tank could close with the enemy hitting him on the move and once near the enemy, the guy with the rockets could step out and double the impact of the attack. I think a skilled one man tank could still take them out but it would be almost a fair fight.

                          I once saw a three man team in a clown car - two inside and one on top - take out two tanks in a matter of seconds as the guy on top threw bomb packs on two tanks as the silly car drove on by, swerving back and forth the whole time to avoid our tank fire. It was very impressive!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have to say that a good one man tank can easly clean the guts of a crew-tank.
                            On a co-operative tanking guide thread no less - I like your style
                            As you know one can exit and enter a tank in mere seconds
                            wish it was that long, its practically instantaneous
                            But a skilled tanker plans for that weakness and works around it.
                            but a skilled tank crew know their strengths and capitalise on them
                            "Nooo, stop....Stop!...Go back...turn...no the other way! He's over there! No aim that way!"
                            You are descibing taking on a tank containing 2 goons shouting at each other.

                            I agree that a skilled solo tanker (like yourself presumably) can beat most badly crewed tanks. The differing conditions of armoured encounters can mean the no. of crew is irrelevant, one hit can be enough after all. We all get fortunate contact and easy kills and on the flipside are often left wondering what hit us.
                            However you must account for skills of everyone envolved to make a valid argument for solo tanking.

                            But you do later add.....
                            There is a way crewed tanks can become deadly killers.
                            thank goodness, i was worried i was wasting my time trying
                            sigpic

                            greatergoodgames

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              AFTER swirling around through a long ditch, appearing as if out of no where, coming to a sudden stop in just the perfect place for the gunner, this Russian tank takes out the Tiger from its blind spot.

                              Unfortunately the first shot didn't do the trick. While the gunner was loading the driver repositioned the tank so the Tiger's fearsome gun couldn't find them because of the slow turret. While the gunner finished the Tiger with the second shot, the driver shot two Germans running towards Siegess

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