Accurate early war armor

[Santini]

First off, the varient of the pz III that ro currently modells is a Late J or L
Basic front armor was 50mm + 20mm standoff plates. That's an armored rating of 7, not 3.
Not to mention that this varient didn't come out until 42
The correct varient would be F/G/H with 30mm + 30mm frontal armor (value 6) or an early J with 50mm (value 5) and the short 50mm L/42
Also, the coupula needs to get rotated, it should face directly forward as on the pz iv

The Pz IV F1 had 50mm frontal armor, armor vaule 5, not 6.
Same with the F2. The F1 also fired heat munitions, which, while lacking in accuracy and being dificult to use against sloped armor, could penetrate 70mm of armor.

Also, the russians should get the KV-1, not the KV-1S
Heavier, slower, and much better armed, without a coupula. 70mm of armor on the front, 70mm on the sides, 60mm on the rear. A total beast.

 

[sedition]

Absolutely right. The KV1s was only produced in very small numbers in 1942-3. If anything the KV was even better protected than you suggest, with 25-35mm plates bolted onto the standard armour on the hull front and turret sides by 1941. The KV1c that appeared in 1942 had 120mm on the turret and 130mm on the hull side the penalties in weight ultimately making it impracticable.

 

[EvilHobo]

I'm fairly certain these issues have been discussed before.

 

[Santini]

And yet they are strangly unfixed...

 

[horendus]

I love these histroy battles

Have every tank and there varrients!


But thats alot of work...

..and yea i gues if there inacuracy that can be proven they should be attended to.

 

[Santini]

Most of these suggestions wouldn't be that hard to implement, only hard to balance

 

[Elysium]

I'm still waiting for the Tiger's 88 gun to made realistic.

 

[Solo4114]

And awaaaaay we go.

While I'd love to see a more realistically modeled tank system, it won't happen any time soon. Armored Beasts does a decent job of it, but even that has issues.

Implementing a KV-1 would be like throwing in a King Tiger. There's really no point from a gameplay perspective because it's virtually impossible to balance out. The KV-1 would be basically impenetrable (if modeled realistically) to anything the Germans were fielding early in the war. Certainly the Pz III and early Pz IVs wouldn't have been able to take it on easily. While we now have stationary AT guns, you'd basically need 88s to take it out (note: this isn't a rigorously researched position, just my general recollection).

We don't have air support, and artillery is, well, of limited value in the game. We also don't have a lot of other "balancing" factors like crappy terrain that gets your tank stuck, mechanical breakdowns, and a lot of the weak spots that could otherwise render the tank combat ineffective without actually blowing it up.

So, much like the King Tiger, how would you balance the thing? It'd basically be unkillable without making people say "HEY!! That's historically inaccurate!!" Which, I suppose they do now, but clearly doesn't sit well with everyone anyway.

 

[D3terioNation]

Again well said Solo!

I would personally love this tank in-game. But even the humble t-34 is a ***** to kill when perfectly angled! This thing would be un-stoppable!!!

 

[LordKhaine]

So, much like the King Tiger, how would you balance the thing? It'd basically be unkillable without making people say "HEY!! That's historically inaccurate!!" Which, I suppose they do now, but clearly doesn't sit well with everyone anyway.

King Tiger could be knocked out by the IS-2 without much trouble. By the end of the war it was very much eggshells and hammers. But yeah.. at the start of the war it was a common sight to see undergunned but massively armoured beasts virtually immune to enemy tanks. KV1 was such a tank. A lucky pz3 could take it out with a flank shot.. but generally speaking you'd be wanting air support or an 88. Kinda like in africa, how the Matilda II dominated the battlefield until the long barrel pz4 and tiger arrived.

I imagine there are many Forgotten Hope players on the forums. That mod nicely highlights the shocking disparity between early war German and Soviet armour.

 

[Oldih]

Most of these suggestions wouldn't be that hard to implement, only hard to balance

Congratulations. You have found the source of the problem.

I imagine there are many Forgotten Hope players on the forums. That mod nicely highlights the shocking disparity between early war German and Soviet armour.

Kinda, but I still want to see a game which models the fact how nice thing it was to reload T-34\76. Those shells were just lying around in the hull without any organized order, when you reloaded you just throw the used one down the hull, 'climb' down from the turret to hull to get a new shell, 'climb' back to the turret and reload that damm thing.

And let's presume that would be modelled ingame, that reloading T-34 early models - especially on the move - is just one pain in the ***, I can imagine the complains that "omg omg soviets won't stand a chance nerf ze panzarz"

 

[18Bravo]

Kinda liked how in FH42 the tanks mostly seemed monsterous in size, but some of the tanks in RO seem to be about head level with the characters. Also has me wondering if they finally got FH'2 out now. Back on semi-topic, was the kv-1a so thickly armored that a panzer3 early model would have trouble taking out the engine from the rear armor?

 

[Solo4114]

1.) Agreed on the late war issues and hammers vs. eggshells (although even then, you'd still have people complaining that this or that tank was killable).

2.) As I recall, the T-34/76's loading problems are actually modeled in game in the slow reload time (albeit averaged, since loading is unaffected by movement). This is supposed to simulate a cramped turret and lousy interior organization. The 85 has a more roomy turret so it loads comparitively faster, I think (or at least compared to its contemporaries).

3.) I personally love the imbalances of early war combat and the stark differences in tank doctrine. I think it requires a lot more thought than simply "park and shoot" that we see in later war fighting. That's one big reason why I look forward to Mare Nostrum. But, that said, I pity the Germans who have to go up against a Matilda II. Granted, the Matilda doesn't have much bite to it, but it can sure take a pounding. Thing is, the Cruisers are in even worse shape -- they're fast, but lightly armored and have the same weaker 2lb gun. Anyway, that's all a side discussion. As long as there's sufficient counters, you can include things like that. I just don't think the KV-1 would have effective counters on an early war map.

3.) FH2 is (from what I hear) tentatively scheduled for "late summer", but I'm not holding my breath. Even when it does come out, it'll still be small, have lots of bugs to work out, and won't be even 1/4 of the scope of FH1, which I worry will hurt it. Plus, it'll be years before additional content is fully developed, and anyone familiar with the release history of FH1 will know that there may be multiple controversial decisions made about this or that in the course of its potential development (IE: anyone remember the change between 0.5 rifles and 0.6? Or between 0.6 and 0.65 flight code?).

 

[Plaid13]

The game needs that early kv1 to make it balanced how about just giving the tracks a big damage area like all tanks should have. that way its easy to knock a track off and circle around behind it to take it out. tank tactics would then mean more then finding the correct angle to your enemy.

 

[Oldih]

3.) I personally love the imbalances of early war combat and the stark differences in tank doctrine. I think it requires a lot more thought than simply "park and shoot" that we see in later war fighting. That's one big reason why I look forward to Mare Nostrum. But, that said, I pity the Germans who have to go up against a Matilda II. Granted, the Matilda doesn't have much bite to it, but it can sure take a pounding. Thing is, the Cruisers are in even worse shape -- they're fast, but lightly armored and have the same weaker 2lb gun. Anyway, that's all a side discussion. As long as there's sufficient counters, you can include things like that. I just don't think the KV-1 would have effective counters on an early war map.

Sounds good in theory, but this has been also discussed to death or mentioned to death:

1. Too small maps to have any TRUE tank tactics or strategies based on Blitzkrieg doctrine E.G. on german side (encirclements and such) - even theoretically that's impossible with the current map sizes.
2. You can't force players to actullay co-ordinate and work as a organized military units.
3. Related with point 2., you can't force proper platoons and such ingame that actually co-ordinate together or any true units at all.
4. Related with two earlier points, you can't also force a morale in game, thus deploying any large scale tank tactics is practically impossible.
5. RO's tank system itself is far from realistic. Sure it works gameplaywise (and is fun actually to play), but to have actually even 'proper' system by basic idea we need a major overhaul that takes insane amount of time.

Before someone mentiones armoured beasts, sure the mutator is nice since it gives general improvements there and there, but the basic problems still are there which also prevents any 'true' and 'realistic' tanking in the first place.

Oh, and making actually proper sized maps that even would allow some kind of proper tank engagements would be boring for most of the people.

Edit: Sure I would like to see a realistic system, but that's just plain mission impossible in RO

 

[Slyk]

Like it or not, you are going to get an early KV1 and probably KV2 (although my use of the 2 will be immobile). Both will be scaled on the stock RO models. The argument of realism this and that is pointless as it is valid. In the end, the game already is more than many players can deal with since it is not your typical A.D.D. run and gun game play with insta-spawn/action as you chase each other in endless circles around a map trying to displace the other guy only to do it over again.

We have what we have and need to work within the bounds or push them as we can. The engine can only do so much and we as a mod community can squeeze out a bit more in some cases. The next version of RO is sure to offer more of everything but until then we'll have to make the best of what we have and I think that is the best 'something' I have ever had to work with.

Back to the KVs... mappers will have to be smart and implement them properly. 'Elnya' will have one KV-1 and although a bastard to kill, it will be slow and vulnerable to flank shots and have limited terrain access. Trade-offs in speed for armor obviously, but hopefully just as fun and challenging to have in a map from both sides.

 

[Solo4114]

Oldih, I agree with you, I'm just saying that in a perfect world....well, you know.

And Slyk, that's true, there will be ways to balance out "unkillable" vehicles (or at least really hard to kill vehicles) through mapping, but it does take things like crappy terrain (or at least as crappy as the Unreal Engine can get) and enough room to flank.

 

[[VFD]HH]

With Orel88v76 and BlackDayinJuly giving the Germans a Tiger, I don't understand why a KV1 cannot be dealt with. Maybe the disparity between a T34 and a Tiger is not as big between a Pz3 and a KV1, but give the Russians their mostly inferior tanks (BT series, T26s, etc.) and consider how slow the KV1 is, and early war seems possible.

KV2s...eh I remember reading that a KV2 (that was cut off) held up a whole Panzer Army for a day, and the Germans ultimately just waited for it to run out of its limited ammo before passing it.

Having mobile KV2s would be scary.

 

[Oldih]

With Orel88v76 and BlackDayinJuly giving the Germans a Tiger

Well with RO default tank system you can beat Tiger even with T-60 just like that. So I wouldn't say that having a Tiger is exactly that "imba".

And presuming if we would have KV2, it would have same problem that the tank might pack a 'punch' by the idea, but gameplaybalance and other crap like that just renders it ungodlike.

 

[Solo4114]

With Orel88v76 and BlackDayinJuly giving the Germans a Tiger, I don't understand why a KV1 cannot be dealt with. Maybe the disparity between a T34 and a Tiger is not as big between a Pz3 and a KV1, but give the Russians their mostly inferior tanks (BT series, T26s, etc.) and consider how slow the KV1 is, and early war seems possible.

KV2s...eh I remember reading that a KV2 (that was cut off) held up a whole Panzer Army for a day, and the Germans ultimately just waited for it to run out of its limited ammo before passing it.

Having mobile KV2s would be scary.

Well, the reason why the Tiger works on 88v76 is that the Tiger isn't modeled realistically. Its armor is still more vulnerable than it should be, most of the time, but aside from that, engagement ranges on most maps featuring an "88v76" matchup (IE: Black Day July) favor the T-34. They're close range maps, really, at least for tank combat. Yes, even BDJ. Orel only begins to approach the max ranges at which the Tiger could operate effectively, which was its real strength. It's not that the thing was invulnerable, just that it could kill you before you could kill it.

The KV-1, though, from what I have heard anecdotally (meaning I haven't researched this any), really DID have largely impenetrable armor, at least for the 50mm Pz IIIs, which, at the time, was the baddest boy on the block for the German armor. The Flak 88 could take out the KV-1, but those would be stationary (which might be a nice addition anyway...).

The KV-2, however, was never designed to be anything other than a fortification killer. I mean, sure, a Pz III that gets hit by the KV-2's round is gonna be a grease stain, but the KV-2 could be outflanked and outmaneuvered. That wouldn't translate as well in RO, though, due to the limited size of maps.