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Everyone loves a good debate... PC Gamer Article

Ah, where do I begin. Well, I guess facts would be a good place to start:

1) There was no motivation on my or TWI's part on the timing of this article. It wasn't to drum up attention for Rising Storm or anything like that. The journalist that flew out to see Rising Storm was interviewing us about RS, and while the recorder was rolling he asked me some questions about what I thought about the state of FPS games. I gave him some candid responses, a lot of which were based around frustrations I had while working on Action mode. Think of it like two friends just chatting about what they think about games and game development. That was the atmosphere. What PC Gamer does with that chat after we have it, I have no control over. Now if they did this article now to get attention for Rising Storm, that is up to them.

2) Misconception - "RO2 has failed." Far from it. RO2 has sold and is still selling way better than RO1 did, has a consistent player base equivalent or higher than RO1 at its peak and is every bit as popular as the original now.

3) Misconception - "Tripwire tried to design RO2 to be more like COD for the initial launch." This one REALLY makes me chuckle because it couldn't be farther from the truth. I really wish some of you could have sat in the design meetings where we were designing RO2. Hell, before RO2 shipped I played maybe 30 minutes of COD multiplayer EVER. The core of RO2 was designed in late 2006/early 2007 before COD MW shipped with unlocks, etc. We came up with the unlock systems in our designs BEFORE we saw it in COD. We just thought it would be a cool thing to have in the game, a good way for us to introduce some of the cool variants of weapons used during the war. And the Honor system was something that I thought was cool about the previous game I worked on America's Army. I liked how it gave players a sense of progression and status. A way to say "check it out, I've been playing this game for a long time". RO2 multiplayer was the game that we, the devs of Tripwire, wanted to play. If we had the money at the time, RO1 would have been a lot like what RO2 was (minus the bugs and lack of polish when we shipped of course). RO2's features were Tripwire doing what the team had always done - making a game we wanted to play - period. We did have a goal of making it easier to get over the games learning curve, but not to be like COD, but rather just so players could get in and have fun by getting to the core of the RO experience, and keep playing the game.

4) Misconception - "Action mode is a useless failure because nobody plays it". The last time we did a free weekend for RO2 around Christmas we set up a lot of Action mode servers so that new players could get eased into the RO2 experience (rather then getting pissed off and leaving after an hour of getting head shotted from 100 meters by the elite RO fanbase). You know what, it worked! Of the people that tried the game during the free weekend, around 30% of them bought the game! And a LOT of people tried the game. Back in the Ostfront days, we'd be lucky to have 5% of people that tried the game buy it. They would try it, get turned off by the learning curve, and leave. So even if guys don't keep playing Action mode for long, many of them stick around and move on to Realism or Classic mode. It's a gateway. And that is a win for the whole community. Side note - I only started playing COD MP after we launched and started working on GOTY's Action mode to do comparative analysis. And yes Action mode was geared to appeal directly to COD style players (and as you can tell by the interview was a pretty frustrating experience for me).

5) Misconception - "Tripwire tried to please everybody and pleased nobody". Well this goes back to point #1 - we sold way more games, and have just as many players. So apparently we pleased SOMEBODY :) We've also openly admitted our faults in missing the mark on what the RO1 fans wanted with the original launch of RO2. But since then we've busted our butts to release and refine Classic mode to be what the hardcore faithful wanted. We also missed the mark at launch on making something that more casual players could enjoy, which is why we created Action mode.

6) Misconception - "Tripwire doesn't care about competitive play". We can do better at this, and I'll be the first to admit it. That is why we're putting so much effort into TWI Ladder and supporting its launch and changes to the game to support competitive play. TWI Ladder is launching VERY soon, and once again competitive RO players will have a home. We're sorry it's taken so long, all I can say is we're not a huge company, and we do our best.

7) Yes I barely read the RO2 forums any more. Frankly there are just too many people here that no matter what we do, good or bad just go super negative. So I let Yoshiro brave the waters most of the time and fill me in on what the pulse of the community is. It is a real de-motivator for the Tripwire devs, and frankly makes a lot of them want to go work on KF instead of RO. For me, we shipped a broken product, and the GOTY edition fixed that broken product. So aside from fixing bugs, everything we add to a game after we ship is a gift to the community. We don't make money off you guys when we add maps or additional content. We spend a ton of money doing it though. Then we give it away. For free. Then we get hated on because we don't give ENOUGH free stuff. Well let me tell you a little story:

Way back when we released RO: Ostfront we did a TON of free updates, with lots of maps, new vehicles, weapons, etc etc. And the community loved it. What the community didn't see was that behind the scenes Tripwire almost went bankrupt because of it. There were at least two times that I took out loans personally guaranteed by my house and everything I owned to pay the employees and keep the company afloat for a few more weeks. By the grace of God we kept afloat, but all those free updates nearly put Tripwire out of business multiple times. Yes that's right, some of that free content you got put me in danger of being homeless and closing the doors of the company, no joke.

Now I'm not telling you this because I want sympathy. Tripwire is rocking now, selling lots of games, and I get a decent paycheck because of it. I tell you this because I just hope that some of you realize just how much devs have to risk to give you free content, and that it really is a gift. And while we have a lot more money than we used to, we do have to be careful not to give away so much free stuff we go out of business (especially now that the company has 40 mouths to feed instead of the 5 we had when we shipped RO1). Every free update I have to motivate a group of developers to work on giving away free stuff. And to be blunt, they can either work on KF or RO2 free stuff. So show the RO2 devs some love, so it is easier for me to get them to make you free stuff :)

Finally let me conclude with this. Tripwire is growing, but we're still punching way above our weight. Every time we release a military shooter we're going up against studios 10-20 times our size (think of the The Netherlands going to war with Russia). We don't want sympathy for this either - we realize we're going to take some hard punches when we step into the rings with the heavyweights. Just maybe keep this in mind the next time you sit down to type a message on these forums. We do the best we can with the resources we have, and we're always striving to do better. I really believe RO2 has turned a corner. With TWI Ladder coming out, the community map pack official release around the corner, Rising Storm almost finished, it's about to be an awesome time to be an RO2 player. Keep the feedback here on the forums constructive, and we'll have have some awesome game experiences together!!!

P.S. Rising Storm is REALLY awesome :)

standing ovation for the president.
It is a bit sad that you don't read your forum anymore. It is like a defeat.

All you've said is right, but let me say one thing(if you're reading, I hope): you did a lot of mistake with the launch of Red Orchestra 2. You promise A LOT of things, too much for an indie team. As you said, you're in a battlefield where you are against huge team. When you do something, you're exposed to criticism.
For Rising Storm, again, make a beta preorder for us, you don't need to advertise a lot, I think that all the community will buy the game, because we love Tripwire.
Listen the feedback, it is important, even if your choice was been rewarded, if what you said is true.

A strong community help selling a game, you know for sure. ;)
 
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Ramm, Thank you for writing in response to our criticism. You definitely shed some light on things I myself hadn't considered. It's good to get some feedback and also good to hear that TWI is doing so well ! It's hard to tell on these forums sometimes.

In regards to action mode, I never realized it did actually help the playerbase grow during the free weekends. That's great to hear and actually may change my mind a bit about those modes.. But, would you ever consider resolving classic vs realism ? Without aligning myself to one side or the other, I feel like there should only be one of the two. Both have different mentalities and players compromise when playing one over the other.

And as for content - I know that the quality TWI produces takes time. Rising Storm will be great and new vehicles down the road will all be great. I encourage TWI to continue sourcing the community for updates. The Map Contest was awesome and I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the map makers / TWI working together.
 
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Also I see no reason for so much personal offense and hate to recommend that TWI just forget trying to fix RO all together, especially coming from people who claim to be the true fans of RO.

I was the biggest TWI fan when RO2 was released. Even after the release month, I had a community website and a server running, trying to convince more people to buy this game. I put precious hours trying to prepare for this game and support it afterwards. I wanted it to succeed.

But, TWI handled the post-release so badly and turned us down so many times for months, for the sake of capturing mainstream that I lost all my hope that TWI wanted to please the RO community. They just wanted a new community(a slice from mainstream) and be done with the old one, and you know what? It is gone. RO2 has it's own audience with different tastes, and that taste lies more towards the "mainstream".

There is no "fixing" RO2 now, it is just as TWI(John) wanted. He won't change it. I do not dare think what he "envisions" for a RO3. Now I'm thinking the success of mod and Ostfront was more the other members "keeping him in check" rather than his own success. It is also what the current community wants, these are the guys who managed to like RO2 with all it's warts and all. They don't want it changed.

Want to know why I'm posting this stuff? Read my huge reddit post about the short history of RO and RO2.
 
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7) Yes I barely read the RO2 forums any more. Frankly there are just too many people here that no matter what we do, good or bad just go super negative.

People (most people) aren't trying to be negative. The people that reside on these forums are here because they love RO, they wanted to have a hand in helping you construct a product. We know all of you at TWI are working very hard; patches have been numerous and RO2 has began to shift towards what I understand everyone feels is 'a better game'. The new content is going to let people know you are still here to support the longevity of RO2.

Oh and I am looking forward to hearing more about Rising Storm. Would you ask them to hurry up with my application to be a tester?

Cheers!
 
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Very good publicity regardless, and mostly people aren't talking negatively about RO2 there, just talking about the concepts mentioned in the article (Cod ruined a generation of gamers). Making people think about turning away from Cod can only be a good thing

Yes but it will be in vain when people embrace RO2 as their savior only to be disappointed by the mess that the game is now :\
 
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RO2 multiplayer was the game that we, the devs of Tripwire, wanted to play.

Fair enough. And if you're happy with the end result then I have nothing to fault you about.

I realize gaming is a business and after owning small businesses for close to thirty years I know there are several ways to succeed, you can chase/steal customers from other similar competitors and only try to understand and provide what they want (I'll use fast food as an analogy) or you can fuel your personal passion and provide what you think is a great product. (Small mom & pop/fine dining restaurant) I believe that you took the Mom & Pop and tried to franchise it into a small regional chain which caused you to lose your small, but very, very loyal following. But, it appears you wanted the small regional chain all along and by the numbers it seems to have been a success. If this was your goal from the beginning, as I said, congratulations and fair enough.

Unfortunately, it also appears that it isn't the game that I or other like minded players wanted to play judging by the lack of populated Classic servers. I won't bemoan this fact, it's the reality of a marketplace, people always vote with their feet most effectively. I'm planning on sticking around to see how RS turns out, but now that A3 seems to have improved much of it's CQB/MP clunkiness, their vision of what a FPS/sim should be aligns much better with mine.
 
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TWI can't into good publicity :p

(sorry for the chan speak)

Oh well I don't blame em, I don't see how they would salvage any good publicity other than to do simple bandwagon COD hate.

True. Such a strong headline attracts many people, it's a good move on their behalf, because half the people who dislike the game have only played pre-GOTY and just put it down after a week.
 
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Was interesting to read what Ramm put, its always worth seeing what the other side thinks even if you don't necessarily agree with everything

It looks like Action mode is in Rising Storm though :( . Wish they realised the damage to their credibility as realism game makers when they put that stuff in. When they released the GOTY version all I played is action mode on Danzig, and my interest in RO2 as a game lasted a weekend. I don't even want to play RO2 if it shares a playerbase with something so counter to what RO was supposed to be all about. You can't even balance the maps properly with all these different modes.

I remember seeing comments in another forum about how they bought the game because of action mode, but some weeks later they couldn't play anymore because no one was playing action servers. How many people would have tried RO2 and never got to see RO as a tactical realism game too?

I just think it spoils the brand, splits up the playerbase and ruins TWI's credibility in the genre. Have 2 realism modes if you want, but not action please. Even the wording for the realism and classic modes made it clear which version the devs wanted people to play
 
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2) Misconception - "RO2 has failed." Far from it. RO2 has sold and is still selling way better than RO1 did, has a consistent player base equivalent or higher than RO1 at its peak and is every bit as popular as the original now.

You know what people mean when they say "RO2 has failed.". Don't be silly.

3) Misconception - "Tripwire tried to design RO2 to be more like COD for the initial launch." This one REALLY makes me chuckle because it couldn't be farther from the truth. I really wish some of you could have sat in the design meetings where we were designing RO2. Hell, before RO2 shipped I played maybe 30 minutes of COD multiplayer EVER.

RO2 is no doubt closer to COD than RO1. Maybe the problem was that you hadn't played enough COD to see what made RO1 so different from it.

5) Misconception - "Tripwire tried to please everybody and pleased nobody". Well this goes back to point #1 - we sold way more games, and have just as many players.

From a players perspective I'm not sure that is actually a positive statistic.

So aside from fixing bugs, everything we add to a game after we ship is a gift to the community. We don't make money off you guys when we add maps or additional content. We spend a ton of money doing it though. Then we give it away. For free. Then we get hated on because we don't give ENOUGH free stuff.

Free content updates was mentioned a lot prior to the release of RO2. For me it's a extremely big + if the devs of a game have a history of support for the game post launch. At release there was even some specifics of this contents down to the model of the tanks that would be added. I don't think any of the content actually listed (see bottom of page) have been released yet so is it so strange for people to complain?
 
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So aside from fixing bugs, everything we add to a game after we ship is a gift to the community. We don't make money off you guys when we add maps or additional content. We spend a ton of money doing it though. Then we give it away. For free. Then we get hated on because we don't give ENOUGH free stuff.

Misconception. If you advertise a product containing certain features and then these features are missing in the product, what do you call that? Imagine one person buying a boxed RO 2 version today and on the back it says under features "Online campaign...". Not to talk about the nice marketing bla bla bla about how quickly new vehicles and tanks would see daylight.

Of the people that tried the game during the free weekend, around 30% of them bought the game!

During the last free weekend, player numbers were up to about 4000 (peak). Let's triple that number considering 3 major timezones and players obviously didn't play the whole time. That makes it 12,000 in total. You claim that 30% of the players purchased the game. But let's be generous here and simply assume that 100% bought the game. That's 12,000 players buying RO 2 for the bargain of USD 5. That's a whopping USD 60,000 generated through a steam sale. I am stunned, considering you say 40 people work at TWI.
Are you trying to say that the steam sale gave TWI breathing space money wise? That would hugely surprise me. Long-term, steam sales make sense of course, especially, in your case, for building up interested players for Rising Storm. Problem is: Once you entered a discounted price, it's hard to ever get the impression of "this game is done" away from people.

P.S. Rising Storm is REALLY awesome :)

As Rak mentioned before. Rising Storm will be the real test on how your ideas go through and are accepted by the community. I am sure you will get a lot of new players because of the setting and basically being without any competition in the game theater (WW 2 Pacific). Plus, gamers are like junkies, they need the next shot. Hopefully you generate a new fanbase.
 
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Free content updates was mentioned a lot prior to the release of RO2. For me it's a extremely big + if the devs of a game have a history of support for the game post launch. At release there was even some specifics of this contents down to the model of the tanks that would be added. I don't think any of the content actually listed have been released yet so is it so strange for people to complain?

the big mistake was to promise a LOT. But they delivered free contents including a working sdk, that cost a LOT. They delivered maps, balancing, optimizations, they launch two new modality, following the feedback from community.

Tripwire is an indie team with few resources, that supported an FPS multiplayer in a way that is simple amazing. Game was released almost two years ago and you don't pay NOTHING more than the client at launch.

This game has a LOT of content, but you focus only in what is missing.
Ok, now I know why Gibson don't read the forum anymore.
 
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Point 1)


Point 2)



Point 3)

1) Our communication wasn't as great as we would have liked leading into the release, but we removed or changed anything that mentioned features or content that would not be in the game. If we missed something, that was on accident.

Game development is a process in which things change, and often (especially as you near a major milestone such as a release). You have to cut/push features to work on the things already working to ensure they are working properly and well.

Then as the life of a game goes on game companies (such as ourselves) switch focus based on the communities and the companies needs.

2) Tripwire just went over 30 people (RO 2 started development with around 12 if I remember correctly).
(I cannot talk about numbers in any way - Valve asks us to keep those private for quite some time).
It isn't, however, just the sale itself. Time and time again Valve (and ourselves) have pointed out that sales of a game are stronger post a huge sale/free weekend. This helps the games continue to thrive.

3) We are well aware of mistakes we made with the launch of RO 2 and we do not plan to make them again for Rising Storm. Does that mean you (or others) will agree with every decision or design? No. But beyond looking at things such as bugs/polish/usability we have/are looking at things such as player lethality (and I've run tests on that between RO 1 and RO 2), and other gameplay differences due to feature differences.


As to what people at Tripwire feel about our products, each person is different to a degree. John and myself (with some others) are actually on the hardcore end of the spectrum here at Tripwire. And if I haven't made it clear by now my preferred way of playing RO 2 is with a realism base with classic weapon handling and load-out you haven't read my posts.
 
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I just wonder how many of the RO2 sales were overhyped preorders during the beta and launch week, and how many were after the hype died and people discovered RO2 as what it is. I made at least 9 sales for you by hyping my RO1 friends and NOT ONE played RO after launch.

Same here, preordered 4 copies for friends and me and then bought 3 more (cousins and brother) the first time the game went on sale. Now just 2 of these people play it regularly (unfortunately I'm not one of them).
 
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Misconception. If you advertise a product containing certain features and then these features are missing in the product, what do you call that? Imagine one person buying a boxed RO 2 version today and on the back it says under features "Online campaign...". Not to talk about the nice marketing bla bla bla about how quickly new vehicles and tanks would see daylight.

Online campaign isn't mentioned on the back of the box, and was pulled from all marketing before we shipped the game. When you are developing a game, often times you try to do 10 things. 1 or 2 of those things you try and they may not end up being as fun as you thought, or may take too long to be able to develop, so you have to cut them. If you don't cut anything, you may never ship your game. Every feature listed on the back of the box, and on the Steam page exists in the game. And yes, we did have plans for lots of thing that we would release soon after the game launched. Then we had to spend 6 months fixing our game. So plans changed, and they always will in game development. In the future we'll likely be more tight lipped about what our plans are, that way people won't still be angry two years later when they change :)

During the last free weekend, player numbers were up to about 4000 (peak). Let's triple that number considering 3 major timezones and players obviously didn't play the whole time. That makes it 12,000 in total. You claim that 30% of the players purchased the game. But let's be generous here and simply assume that 100% bought the game. That's 12,000 players buying RO 2 for the bargain of USD 5. That's a whopping USD 60,000 generated through a steam sale. I am stunned, considering you say 40 people work at TWI.
Are you trying to say that the steam sale gave TWI breathing space money wise? That would hugely surprise me. Long-term, steam sales make sense of course, especially, in your case, for building up interested players for Rising Storm. Problem is: Once you entered a discounted price, it's hard to ever get the impression of "this game is done" away from people.

Lets clear up some things here. First off the peak player numbers were 6,311 players during the free weekend (that 6,311 players playing at one time). Secondly there is a common misconception that if you see peak player numbers of 1000, then that means only 1000 people played the game that day. This is not correct of course. Players are constantly leaving and joining, so if you see 1000 peak players, you'll have about 5 times that many that played at some point during the entire day, and about 10 times that many that played during the course of a week or so. So if you had 1000 peak player numbers over a few days, 10,000+ unique players played during that time. So your numbers are WAY off, and I won't give out the real sales numbers because Valve won't allow me to :)
 
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Can you play only a game at a time?

No, I'm just having a hard time enjoying RO2 since I don't like the movement speed in Realism, plus all the gimmicks, so I don't play it except occasionally to confirm it still bores me. It's too fast paced and (bad word coming! :p) COD-ish for my taste, I used to enjoy that style of gaming and played it for years, I just don't any more. Classic is closer to what I like and with the community maps and full severs it's great fun, but there's few people playing it when I am, so neither of the choices of a 2 V 1 match or playing with bots are very appealing. I keep popping on, hoping for a change, but that's the reality of it, at least for me.

I have slight hope that RS will improve things, but the fact remains that the style of gaming enjoyed by both the developers and most players in RO2 is not quite mine which doesn't lead me to believe that the franchise will start tilting back in my direction anytime soon.

I'm not *****ing about it, I don't expect developers to cater to me, they are free to make what they want, gamers are free to choose what to play.
 
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What I always hate is when comparing games to cod "dumbed-down" is mixed up with easy and a low skill ceiling.
Red Orchestra is just hard because you die so easily but that doesn't make it a skillful game. Those 2 thing are mutually exclusive. Take aiming skill for example - In realistic games you die from pretty much one shot. One shot which is easy to pull off from players from any skill-level. If players in a game would need to hit their enemy 10 times, then you would actually see a bigger difference between a highly skilled player vs a low skilled one, because he had much more room to show the difference in skill.
It's the same thing in battlefield games where all the people playing "hardcore" mode actually think they play the more skillful version of the game. That's total bs.
The reason why I'm writing that is because RO2 made a huge step backwards in terms of the skill-ceiling compared to ostfront.
Why TWI didn't manage to keep that skillfulness for RO2 is because they don't understand what made ostfront good for comp-gaming and it rather happened by coincidence and "unrealistic" features.
One reason why pretty much all the top tier mod and Ostfront comp players/teams left the game and only a handful middle tier players, who don't understand very much about competitive gaming, remain in the game.
 
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