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Everyone loves a good debate... PC Gamer Article

And to be honest the criticism of RO2 being clunky isn't just from CoD players. RO2 is just a clunky game, even moreso then ROOST was. Why? The movement, the cover system "sticking you" to certain parts of it among other things, reloading, leaning, proning as well as getting stuck on certain areas of terrain. Describing the RO2 as fluid isn't something I would do, CoD however is quite fluid in comparison.
 
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I think the general point that mainstream gamers prefer to be skilled regardless of skill level is true, but a bit superficial.

You need to ask why they prefer that. One partial answer is that the desire not to look stupid has a strong influence on gamer preferences.

The leveling system caters to that in one sense - If you put enough time into the game, then you will see your skill improve by way of game mechanisms. So no need to feel you just wasted 500 hours. You are more skilled, even if you are not.

But something is needed that allows conscripts to be conscripts and feel they are contributing (ie not feeling stupid). A variable respawn cost depending on raw recruit-hero level status comes to mind.

So as to cater to "does not matter if you died 1000 times. You killed a highly decorated enemy while you were at it. So good job for the team".
 
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Well while I still think the introduction of the Action gamemode and the CoD-type progression wasn't really necessary I still think the "dumbing down" of the FPS-genre doesn't only apply to itself.

If we look at modern game development every genre possible was dumbed down a lot. The games are now made for a wider, younger audience and nearly every game tries to be cross-platform. And of course the industry says: If our game is easy enough, has a low entry-level and gives you satisfaction while playing the first few minutes to let the player achieve something we sell copies. Lots of copies. This is what it comes down to. Selling copies of your game. Because you get money then. Money makes companies happy. And your company can pay people. So you can make more games. Look at the trend: Sim City, Medal of Honor, strategy games, all of these make the entry-level low to let a younger and wider audience play their games.

Computer games are an industry. Comparable to the movie industry nowadays. There are people who make their blockbuster games. These cost an awful lot of money, have a lot of explosions, and next year they are forgotten and we shove the next series of explosions into your face. Let's say Call of Duty is a Michael Bay movie. You're gonna sit through it a bit. Think about how nice those explosions look and after that you feel a bit guilty but to be honest you enjoyed yourself.

And then theres the Indie-scene. They make movies/games for a specific group of people, they don't try to make a Michael Bay movie because they don't want too. Because they want to cater "their" audience.

I really like RO2 for what it is, it is an awesome game that has a lot of good ideas. In the beginning, it just could've used a little less Michael Bay and the community wouldn't be as divided as it is now. But of course I understand TWI and what they wanted to do with it.
 
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It's not true that CoD doesn't require much skill. It does - at least if you want to be good at it. Anyone who doesn't believe me should pick up the game, go into a random server with competetive players and see for themselves. You must spend a long time to learn the maps, but most of all, to learn how people utilize the map. You must also use a bit of psychology in order to determine your foes next move, or to fool them thinking that you are about to do something that you don't do.

Difference is, that this game is what most people called 'dumbed down'. The game offers a lot of simplistic features and game mechanics. Every weapon is 'balanced', one of the ways to ensure new player's are not punished for their errors. The game must forgive. Singleplayer is made action-packed so that it never becomes 'boring' and it becomes very easy to predict what's supposed to happen next. Because everything is scripted. Enemies pop-up in front of you like dummies, doors are closed behind you, to ensure that you don't ''get confused where to go or what to do''. The game offers you a lot of artificial rewards.

It's a slot machine that throws out fake money at you to make you believe that you actually achieve something and give you a reason to keep on playing, but in the end, all that you achieve is what the game gives you for simply playing it, and funny enough this is what makes people keep on playing. The trail- and error proccess barely exist, because there is no real consequences for any error. Compared to RO2, or even better ARMA, when for example sticking your head up in the wrong moment that can erase 40 minutes of progress.

Another 'issue' with games like RO, even ''Realism'' Mode, is that the game is clunky; you can't act like if you were a ghost flying all over the map or jumping around (this 'great' movements may be great but far removed from realism), aiming requires more skill, shooting requires more skill, every step you take must be calculated or you're dead.

CoD created a new and successfull formula that other people followed. Since it has become a paradigm in the gaming industry and among gamers this is what people expect.

What I find ironic about this article, though, is that the the style of gameplay he seems to despise, and the players he seems to dislike (''dislike'' may be a strong word but I don't know how else to put it), was the very same players they (TWI) so blatantly obvious tried to appeal to, it is the very same game which their game (RO) was so much affected by, while seemingly neglecting their original fanbase.

It isn't a coincidence that there is enemy loadouts, spawn on squadleader, MkB, no command system, XP, unlocks, perks, smaller more streamlined levels, increased amount of HUD details, focus on more fast paced gameplay in RO2, and in general many 'complex' features from RO1 missing. It's a deliberate decision that in the end backfired. Now they (TWI) throw dirt at CoD, yet it was all fine copying features from CoD game and implementing them into RO2 but when it doesn't work CoD is the bad guy.

I do understand this decision, and it is partly what Mr. Gibson said:

CoD have ruined todays generation of gamers - the same thoughts that I have - because nowdays every game has to be like CoD and cater to CoD players, and any game that doesn't is bad.


Now,

with this article, I get the feeling that Gibson have realized how pointless it is to try to cater to CoDplayers with RO2.

That begs the question whenever another direction will be taken with Rising Storm. But that is also difficult, since RS is supposed to be integrated into RO2. So I think I keep my hopes low.

RO1 was indeed successfull and created its own formula. In the end I think games like CoD will eventually fade out into nothing. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. The ARMA franchise is older than CoD and it keeps on growing.

To bad that it feels like Gibsons article is written only to get attention and act like if RO isn't as dirty as CoD, like RO2 isn't infected by the CoD virus, like RO2 stood ''above the filthy CoD'', when it in fact infected by it.


When the question about a spiritual sequel to R1 arise, I think what BIS said in an interview with the press should be taken into account:


''There are two main factors resulting in "accessibility": the complexity of the gameplay and game controls more or less coping with the complex possibilities of a game.

The titles in the Arma series are certainly very complex, and we could hardly make Arma 3 less complex without losing the unique gameplay, so the only way to increase accessibility is to make sure the player is properly guided, the controls are ergonomic and the rules are clear.

We’ve designed the campaign of Arma 3 in a way which would allow novice players to learn the basics first and get enough practice with the new features. If it would work as intended, playing through the campaign should turn a raw recruit into an experienced Arma veteran knowledgeable of all the features the game would offer. Of course, Arma 3 will feature tutorials for all major features, which worked nicely in Operation Arrowhead.''
 
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....Now,

with this article, I get the feeling that Gibson have realized how pointless it is to try to cater to CoDplayers with RO2.

That begs the question whenever another direction will be taken with Rising Storm. But that is also difficult, since RS is supposed to be integrated into RO2. So I think I keep my hopes low.

RO1 was indeed successfull and created its own formula. In the end I think games like CoD will eventually fade out into nothing. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. The ARMA franchise is older than CoD and it keeps on growing.

To bad that it feels like Gibsons article is written only to get attention and act like if RO isn't as dirty as CoD, like RO2 isn't infected by the CoD virus, like RO2 stood ''above the filthy CoD'', when it in fact infected by it.

To be honest, I'm thinking the other way, that John is more obsessed about COD/their success and grabbing their audience, to the point of possibly taking the RO franchise down some murky middle ground path that appeals to even less people.

You are going to get players who only play specific types/styles of games and that applies to FPS as well, and you will get those players that crossover and play multiple ones. I feel the best path for TWI is to make the RO title the best in its (Realism) category. Granted that audience isn't as large as the more casual one but it is sizeable. RO could be one of the go to games for those players and it will be more likely to attract those crossover players because of the solid gaming experience.

Make a solid good game and cater to the crowd the game should be meant for and keep those players and attract those crossover players who like multiple styles. Watering the game down to attract more casual (COD) players is just going to alienate your core audience. Lets face it, if I want to play and have the COD experience, I am going to buy and play COD.
 
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Make a solid good game and cater to the crowd the game should be meant for and keep those players and attract those crossover players who like multiple styles. Watering the game down to attract more casual (COD) players is just going to alienate your core audience. Lets face it, if I want to play and have the COD experience, I am going to buy and play COD.
And that is exactly what happened...nowadays you can be HAPPY to see some old faces around and ofc everyone knows everyone from "back than" which is nice but serious clangameing in RO2 is DEAD ( not that it was ever that BIG but we at least had several things like roladder and the glorious IC ). And it will NOT be resurrected.

Funny to read that TWI ''bashes'' the CoD-formula and yet embraced it for RO2, destroying the RO franchise; looking at playernumbers and what the RO1 old garde opinion is on RO2 -and never came back-.

Irony indeed.
indeed ineed....tho i still like to play it ( ro2 ) when there are people communicating and the good CUSTOM
maps are on.
 
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To be honest, I'm thinking the other way, that John is more obsessed about COD/their success and grabbing their audience, to the point of possibly taking the RO franchise down some murky middle ground path that appeals to even less people.

You are going to get players who only play specific types/styles of games and that applies to FPS as well, and you will get those players that crossover and play multiple ones. I feel the best path for TWI is to make the RO title the best in its (Realism) category. Granted that audience isn't as large as the more casual one but it is sizable. RO could be one of the go to games for those players and it will be more likely to attract those crossover players because of the solid gaming experience.

Make a solid good game and cater to the crowd the game should be meant for and keep those players and attract those crossover players who like multiple styles. Watering the game down to attract more casual (COD) players is just going to alienate your core audience. Lets face it, if I want to play and have the COD experience, I am going to buy and play COD.

Very well said..... Agree 100%
RO2 has the potential to go to the very top in the FPS genre but only if... the nagging details and original marketing promises are attended to.
 
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Call of Duty has questionable influence on the games industry? Who knew. What next? Fire burns?

I suppose I'm just repeating what others have posted so far, but while it's nice thing someone still wants to preach a principle one can easily agree upon, I'm seeing huge mixed message with blatant hypocrisy between the lines.

Just to add, where's the punchline of the article, as it seems to be missing something.
 
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Nice. Also a popular thread in /games:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1a8ghf/call_of_duty_has_almost_ruined_a_generation_of/[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1a8ghf/call_of_duty_has_almost_ruined_a_generation_of/[/URL]

Very good publicity regardless, and mostly people aren't talking negatively about RO2 there, just talking about the concepts mentioned in the article (Cod ruined a generation of gamers). Making people think about turning away from Cod can only be a good thing

Anyway gotta quote the third highest comment thread from the one in /games:

Here's the solution to your problem:
Stop trying to please everyone.
Honestly, this dude opens the interview with, "I wanted to make a hardcore shooting game, but I wanted to also appeal to CoD players." That's just bad design. Period. If you try to please everyone you end up with a mediocre product. Know your intended audience and make a game they'll like.
CoD didn't ruin a generation of shooter players. It created a whole new market of shooter players. These people didn't play Quake, or CS, or Unreal.
Furthermore, to say that a generation is ruined because they don't adhere to the same standards of what is good or bad in a game is incredibly narcissistic. It's also super elitist to criticize focus groups for not being able to articulate exactly what it is, mechanically, about your game they don't like. You don't take somebody who's never eaten fine dining in their lives, give them something to eat, and ask them what wine to pair it with. That's ridiculous.
This whole article is counter-productive and circle-jerky.
EDIT: The only thing CoD has ruined was developers. CoD's crimes do not lie in its gameplay; only in its production. CoD has mechanically stagnated since MW, with little to no change in how the actual game is played. Almost all of the changes since MW are in the pre-game setting.
Just to comment on that quote..Games like CoD will flourish as long as devs feel they have to copy cat to compete, rather than innovate and create their own new markets. You can't out-cod CoD. Same with WoW...people need to carve a niche and expand from that. Gain a playerbase by making good gameplay that CoD can never offer. Look at medieval combat games..that didn't even exist not long ago, now everyone knows what Chivalry and M&B is. What about zombie survival games? Dayz practically created a new genre and it is very hardcore and very popular. You should have people trying to copy your games rather than copy others (like War-z did). I still believe RO2 could have been huge as a real hardcore tactical realism game.
 
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You know you screwed up when you start a thread to promote yourself and give some insights and all you get in return is criticism.

I bet they can't even stand reading the forums, because we're the only ones to see through their hypocrisy. They just post and run away, nevermind replying and defending their "motives".

Reddit just swallowed that article, now John Gibson is the saviour of the industry defender of the hardcore games. Everybody is unaware of what happened with TWI's own game. Are you happy now John?
 
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Ok, it is clear that the intent of this article was to publicize Rising Storm. I'm very glad to hear Tripwire again, I think fans should be happy about this.

What Tripwire fails in release of Red Orchestra 2:
- They rush the release to bring in the game Battlefield players before BF3 was out. It was profitable in the short term(day one there were 10k players in the same time), but a disaster in the long term.

- They spent a lot of money for Red Orchestra 2, they want to encourage a large people to buy the game with some kind of new modern feature bring it on from other triple A FPS multiplayer. I'm speaking about progression system, unlock and a sort of perks(-20 per cent of suppression, yeeeee).

- It was the first approach to a new engine, game had really big issue regarding performance. This cut off out a lot of players.

Now you have maybe the best FPS multiplayer out of there, I think it is very frustrating for Tripwire to see how little interest are people about Red Orchestra series.

I hope you learn the lesson, I hope a lot of things will be VERY DIFFERENT from Rising Storm launch. I hope you listen the community and eliminate all unlocks, progression system, action mode and everything u're criticizing :rolleyes:

An advice: Start a beta preorder for Rising Storm, so the community can support you

Why a say this?Look at Dota2, look other games, look Arma 3 alpha...There are a lot of issues, but people known that there are alpha game, not released games. You will avoid a lot of criticism, you can have major feedback, you can have a game supported by community, it is very important for selling a game. ;)
 
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I keep seeing the same stuff I've seen pre-GOTY in here. We know they messed up, we know it was kind of rushed, blah. Just tired of people spewing the same re-washed words for a little over a year now. (Even if I might have done it myself sometimes) Or maybe that's my morning attitude coming out.

Anyways, I thought it was a good read. Although it was semi-obviously to gather some attention for Rising Storm PR on Monday, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Hell, it's a good move on your behalf. I really hope that Rising Storm not only brings new content to the table, but some different changes to the core game and some bug squashing aswell.

Good luck~
 
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