On Splitting The Community

[El Conejo Peligroso]

Well unfourtunately the price of the authentic and realistic gameplay that factor14 suggests (assuming it is forced upon the audience as the only game mode, which if i read his and Cyper's previous posts correct is what they wanted anyways) is that the player numbers would dwindle into an all time low and stay there, even factoring in the supposed returning RO vets. At the end of the day very few are as masochistic as we are here on the RO forums, and generally depise overty difficulty plainly for the sake of realism. So in short yes if TWI did implement these changes it might make a portion of these forums happy, but RO2 will be subjected to a obscurity even worse than that of OSTFront.

Likely true, hence we want our own mode or will have to ultimately make a mod.

HOWEVER, no game has EVER tried to make a grimly "realistic" shooter showing small scale combat (ARMA) is excluded in this case because it shows larger maneurvers than the general fps genre portrays.

So we cannot know what would have happened if RO2 had from the beginning set out to do just that. FORCE REALISM.

THEREFORE, the reason lots of people would leave at this would likely be because the game would cheat them out of what they bought in the first place and expected, NOT because nobody has ever wanted a game that forces realism and historical accuracy on them, since, perhaps many 1000's would actually like a game like that, but have never had the chance to play one.

We must be careful about conclusions, especially about predicting results of tests that have never been made.

Note: bold is not supposed to be polemical or insulting, I am just emphasizing my main points.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Likely true, hence we want our own mode or will have to ultimately make a mod.

HOWEVER, no game has EVER tried to make a grimly "realistic" shooter showing small scale combat (ARMA) is excluded in this case because it shows larger maneurvers than the general fps genre portrays.

So we cannot know what would have happened if RO2 had from the beginning set out to do just that. FORCE REALISM.

THEREFORE, the reason lots of people would leave at this would likely be because the game would cheat them out of what they bought in the first place and expected, NOT because nobody has ever wanted a game that forces realism and historical accuracy on them, since, perhaps many 1000's would actually like a game like that, but have never had the chance to play one.

We must be careful about conclusions, especially about predicting results of tests that have never been made.

Note: bold is not supposed to be polemical or insulting, I am just emphasizing my main points.

Its not impossible that there are a substantial amount of people looking for that sort of game, but I guess the problem now becomes if TWI is willing to risk losing the player base the game currently has in order to reach out to the really dedicated realism crowd. And what of the people who already enjoy the game as it is, although I don't know exact numbers there are always a good 4-5 full 64 realism servers + several dozen populated ones on around peak times, judging from that I'd say that's certainly a significant amount, at the very least more than the people advocating the forced realism; now this doesn't seem logical or fair - why should the people already enjoying the game now lose their game because a far smaller portion of the same community wants something different (not to mention TWI already put a serious effort into appeasing this crowd with Classic mode), and why would TWI risk losing the majority of their current player base based on a very uncertain idea that there is some hidden crowd of die-hard small-scale realism players out there. Unless of course the current players all make a largescale shift to classic and the demand for the often mentioned realistic changes grows to beyond a few dozen die-hards, the situation would be reversed, but at the moment, for better or for worse the demand for said changes is no where near enough to warrant a complete abandonment of Realism and Action

 

[>< f4ct0r...13]

Well unfourtunately the price of the authentic and realistic gameplay that factor14 suggests (assuming it is forced upon the audience as the only game mode, which if i read his and Cyper's previous posts correct is what they wanted anyways) is that the player numbers would dwindle into an all time low and stay there, even factoring in the supposed returning RO vets. At the end of the day very few are as masochistic as we are here on the RO forums, and generally depise overty difficulty plainly for the sake of realism. So in short yes if TWI did implement these changes it might make a portion of these forums happy, but RO2 will be subjected to a obscurity even worse than that of OSTFront.

It truly is an unfortunate time in the history of gaming when people think that scripted wins is the only way.

RO2 is FULL of scripted wins.

What a terrible time we live in. I long for the days of the player.

 

[Holy.Death]

RO2 is FULL of scripted wins.

First time I encounter that term. What does it mean?

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

First time I encounter that term. What does it mean?

he's probably alluding to in some way to the "player-aids" that he's so passionately against, while I can get that there are people that want a thoroughly (and i mean really thorough) realistic gaming experience, its just not feasible if you want a half-way successful game; and certainly in this case it isn't fair to the existing players that enjoy realism and action to scarp everything and force classic on everyone. And no, a few dozen die-hard realism fans does not constitute a success.

 

[Sarkis.]

... and certainly in this case it isn't fair to the existing players that enjoy realism and action to scarp everything and force classic on everyone.

Who ever mentioned scraping anything and forcing a game mode on everyone ?

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Who ever mentioned scraping anything and forcing a game mode on everyone ?

just take a look at factor13 and Cyper previous posts (including those in other threads) they make it pretty clear their disdain for new players and states time and time again they are the death of this game and they want them gone.


Also refer to this gem of a thread by Cyper, very aptly titled btw

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=78256

 

[Sarkis.]

Well then. Everyone should well know that we can not scrap game modes or force people to the game mode we favor. I am suggesting a whole new mode full of awesomeness to the historical realism folk, but I never had the intention of scraping other mode for the one I came up with.

So, If anyone is saying that we should scrap game modes even if because they are bad game modes... well they are just wrong!

If a mode is undesirable, it will be abandoned naturally by players, there is no need to hunt it down and kill it

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Well then. Everyone should well know that we can not scrap game modes or force people to the game mode we favor. I am suggesting a whole new mode full of awesomeness to the historical realism folk, but I never had the intention of scraping other mode for the one I came up with.

So, If anyone is saying that we should scrap game modes even if because they are bad game modes... well they are just wrong!

If a mode is undesirable, it will be abandoned naturally by players, there is no need to hunt it down and kill it

and thats the point me and the few other sensible people have trying to make in these "Classic vs Realism" type threads. But of course there are always going to be people who won't be happy until everything is forcefully changed to exactly the way they think is right. The very fact that the option of "removing every other game mode other than classic" in that poll got so many votes really speaks volumes about the amount selfishness and elitism in these forums.

 

[Nikita]

just take a look at factor13 and Cyper previous posts (including those in other threads) they make it pretty clear their disdain for new players and states time and time again they are the death of this game and they want them gone.


Also refer to this gem of a thread by Cyper, very aptly titled btw

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=78256[/URL]

They're in the minority. They may be outspoken, but there are far more players who enjoy Classic who also play Realism. I play mainly play Classic, but I firmly believe Realism should stick around. I voted an emphatic "no" in the poll you linked in your post.

That said, I expect the same tolerance from Action and Realism fans, and I quite frankly am tired of accusations that Classic Mode wasted developer time, self-satisfied digs at Classic Mode's low player counts, or generalizations claiming that Classic players do nothing but whine on the forums without ever actually playing the game, etc... (I have 410 hours in RO2 and the RO2 Beta, combined). Live and let live.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

They're in the minority. They may be outspoken, but there are far more players who enjoy Classic who also play Realism. I play mainly play Classic, but I firmly believe Realism should stick around. I voted an emphatic "no" in the poll you linked in your post.

That said, I expect the same tolerance from Action and Realism fans, and I quite frankly am tired of accusations that Classic Mode wasted developer time, self-satisfied digs at Classic Mode's low player counts, or generalizations claiming that Classic players do nothing but whine on the forums without ever actually playing the game, etc... (I have 410 hours in RO2 and the RO2 Beta, combined). Live and let live.

Well said nikita.

 

[Cyper]

I have come across people who bought arma a great simulator like arma, or even an action shooter like CoD, and then they get dissapointed because ''CoD is too unrealistic...'' and ''arma is too to inaccessible and boring''. These people then make demands. They demand that a game like arma arma must become more user friendly and mainstream. These equals pest, a really dirty bunch of people that should be ignored. When you're demanding changes for a gaming genre that is on its last legs, e.i the tactical shooter/simulation genre, that's when you are really forcing people. Since hardcore games really doesn't taste well for most people, even those must become more mainstream-like and they get diluted.

Hence why game this genre barely exist.

So people can throw around words like ''elitism'' and ''selfishness'', but truth is this is just bullpoo. Just because you want a dying gaming genre (or a game itself) to stay true to its roots, just because you want to keep it alive, does not make you to a elitist prick, or some sort of definition of ego simply because you're a minority. Its like saying a ethic minority is selfish because they want to exist. Just because the majority want something does not mean its the correct decision. Unfortunately, its always the minority who gets kicked on. Face the truth and realize that there is no other game like neither RO or ArmA out there. If it gets diluted, or even 'removed', then nothing exist for the minority that like these games, while it still exist hundreds of games that appeal to the masses.

So really, who is selfish?

The gamer who only got one game to play and want to keep it, or the bunch who got hundreds of games to play but want even more?

All those selfish epeople can just leave the board. They've got nothing to do here, nothing constructive or positive to deliver, only a dilution of another great game. There are literally hundreds of games out there for them and they know where to look. By looking at the history, this bunch of selfish, dirty fishes have ruined so many games.

　

Regarding Classic it should never have been a mode. It should have been the game. While I admitt that not everything in Classic is solid its still a far better game in terms of tactical, semi-realistic shooters compared to vanilla. And thats what matters. More over, I don't really know what I expected from classic. A bold new direction in the tactical shooter genre because of a single mode? Classic is a Mode, not a game. OST was a game, not only a Mode. It does not, unfortunately, feel that solid, and maybe that's where the amount of players comes in. The game was from scratch designed for ''Realism'' Mode.

Whenever it was waste of time does not matter in my opinion. All modes where a waste of time. The whole accessibility/dumbing down ''project'' was a waste of time (and huge potential which I know TWI have) and the game ended up almost like operation flashpoint: red river; trying to create a genre called ''everything'' which ultimately makes you aiming at an audience that does not exist.

If RO ever dies, I really hope that the game will die with dignity.

 

[Cwivey]

What's done is done. Considering all that's been added, changed and tweaked post release to try and improve the situation for thoes that wanted something closer to RO:OST, if you still don't like it enough or want to pick at every little detail rather than enjoying it, I'm afraid there's nothing else to be done. It's selfish for one such as yourself to want to change an existing game (Red Orchestra 2) after it has been released and people are playing it as is, you should provide more constructive input, less Realism and Action hatred. Perhaps things may improve for you, but keeping your biased and hating views throughout wont help you in the slightest because people don't respect hate.


Also, on a more light-hearted note.
South Park - Gay Fish - YouTube

 

[r5cya]

I have come across people who bought RO2 and then they get dissapointed because ''RO2 is too unrealistic.''. These people then make demands. They demand that a game like RO2 must become less user friendly and mainstream. These equals pest, a really dirty bunch of people that should be ignored.

made a couple changes. now it describes what you've been up to.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

I have come across people who bought arma a great simulator like arma, or even an action shooter like CoD, and then they get dissapointed because ''CoD is too unrealistic...'' and ''arma is too to inaccessible and boring''. These people then make demands. They demand that a game like arma arma must become more user friendly and mainstream. These equals pest, a really dirty bunch of people that should be ignored. When you're demanding changes for a gaming genre that is on its last legs, e.i the tactical shooter/simulation genre, that's when you are really forcing people. Since hardcore games really doesn't taste well for most people, even those must become more mainstream-like and they get diluted.

Hence why game this genre barely exist.

So people can throw around words like ''elitism'' and ''selfishness'', but truth is this is just bullpoo. Just because you want a dying gaming genre (or a game itself) to stay true to its roots, just because you want to keep it alive, does not make you to a elitist prick, or some sort of definition of ego simply because you're a minority. Its like saying a ethic minority is selfish because they want to exist. Just because the majority want something does not mean its the correct decision. Unfortunately, its always the minority who gets kicked on. Face the truth and realize that there is no other game like neither RO or ArmA out there. If it gets diluted, or even 'removed', then nothing exist for the minority that like these games, while it still exist hundreds of games that appeal to the masses.

So really, who is selfish?

The gamer who only got one game to play and want to keep it, or the bunch who got hundreds of games to play but want even more?

All those selfish epeople can just leave the board. They've got nothing to do here, nothing constructive or positive to deliver, only a dilution of another great game. There are literally hundreds of games out there for them and they know where to look. By looking at the history, this bunch of selfish, dirty fishes have ruined so many games.

　

Regarding Classic it should never have been a mode. It should have been the game. While I admitt that not everything in Classic is solid its still a far better game in terms of tactical, semi-realistic shooters compared to vanilla. And thats what matters. More over, I don't really know what I expected from classic. A bold new direction in the tactical shooter genre because of a single mode? Classic is a Mode, not a game. OST was a game, not only a Mode. It does not, unfortunately, feel that solid, and maybe that's where the amount of players comes in. The game was from scratch designed for ''Realism'' Mode.

Whenever it was waste of time does not matter in my opinion. All modes where a waste of time. The whole accessibility/dumbing down ''project'' was a waste of time (and huge potential which I know TWI have) and the game ended up almost like operation flashpoint: red river; trying to create a genre called ''everything'' which ultimately makes you aiming at an audience that does not exist.

If RO ever dies, I really hope that the game will die with dignity.

honestly Cyper you would fit right in over at Stormfront. Seriously though, just take what you said there and replace RO2 with a Western European country and replace the "filthy causal gamers" with Jews or Muslims or what have you; thats a 5 star post over there.

In all honestly I still don't see how you can complain so much even after TWI (in move that honestly I don't think any other developer, big or small, would of done) went out of their way to appease a select few forum warriors with a entire new game mode -Classic, which like it or not will not be the same as OSTFront. We can debate for years on end the merits and faults of OSTfront and the current realism game mode in RO2, but at the end of the day a much larger part of the community has come enjoy both Classic and Realism (can't really speak for Action, which I find frankly is taking things a step too far) and frankly you have no right to say that these players are "trash" "dirty casusals" or what have you, simply because you seem to put yourself and OST vets on such a high pedestal; seriously though you are currently calling the current RO2 community selfish for the existence of Realism and Action, while simultaneously saying that if the game does change to exactly your standards and tastes, it should die. You should really take a few minutes and really think about what you're saying, as you are talking with the logical sense of an angry 8 year old denied of his candy.

 

[ross]

While I don't agree with Cyper's posts, I can certainly understand why he makes them. I'm pretty angry the $40 game I had been hyping myself up over for nearly six years, even before it was confirmed, turned out to be "historically authentic" and "realistic" in the same sense that Enemy at the Gates is a "gripping, true-to-life tale".

Think what you want about what that makes me, but if the game had not promised the world I wouldn't have a problem. I'd be angry about it, certainly, but I wouldn't be complaining constantly here and demanding the game be changed to meet my expectations. If you want to market the game to the mainstream, then do it, don't try and market it towards the niche RO1 kept happy after turning into something else entirely.

By the way, Classic did absolutely nothing to appease me because it does absolutely nothing to fix the problems I have with the game. I'd really like to see people stop trying to beat back any complaints about realism or gameplay or whatnot with "THEY MADE A WHOLE GAME MODE FOR YOU, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH". It's stupid, childish, and just serves to do exactly what this thread is about - splitting the community.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

While I don't agree with Cyper's posts, I can certainly understand why he makes them. I'm pretty angry the $40 game I had been hyping myself up over for nearly six years, even before it was confirmed, turned out to be "historically authentic" and "realistic" in the same sense that Enemy at the Gates is a "gripping, true-to-life tale".

Think what you want about what that makes me, but if the game had not promised the world I wouldn't have a problem. I'd be angry about it, certainly, but I wouldn't be complaining constantly here and demanding the game be changed to meet my expectations. If you want to market the game to the mainstream, then do it, don't try and market it towards the niche RO1 kept happy after turning into something else entirely.

By the way, Classic did absolutely nothing to appease me because it does absolutely nothing to fix the problems I have with the game. I'd really like to see people stop trying to beat back any complaints about realism or gameplay or whatnot with "THEY MADE A WHOLE GAME MODE FOR YOU, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH". It's stupid, childish, and just serves to do exactly what this thread is about - splitting the community.

Well considering the situation, with very heavily divided camps of people, making a new game mode was the most reasonable thing to do. As its fairly obvious from the player numbers changing entire game one way (either Arcade or full-on realism) would only serve to destroy the already small population the game has. Yes by all means suggest changes and make suggestions but for god's sake stop trying to force across-the-board changes that clearly don't sit well with most of the population. The best thing to do at this point is to replace Realism and Classic with a game mode that takes features from both, leaving Action mode as it is.

 

[ross]

I have said before, and will continue to say, that the best course of action is to get rid of Classic, remove the offending features from realism (most of the problems contribute little or nothing to the game, or are actively detrimental, so the only people I see the change forcing away would be the most obnoxiously spoiled minority who won't play a game unless they can unlock things), and make that the game mode. I also strongly believe Action has no place in this game. It's a waste. CoD and any number of other, less realism-centric shooters do it better than action mode. If anyone bought this game purely for that mode, I feel sorry for them.

Of course, none of this would have been a problem at all and the community would never be under threat of splitting if Tripwire had just realised from the start that they had a comfortable niche and as long as they stood by their promise to deliver realism and authenticity, they would continue to have a small, but faithful, fanbase - which would expand over time anyway as the improvements RO2 introduced perhaps won over people deterred by RO's relative clunkiness.

Instead, we have a number of hardcore fans feeling basically betrayed and cheated, some of whom want to turn the game into some gimped rehash of Ostfront and others wanting the game to focus on being its own, more casual fans who are fine with things the way they are, and a bunch of people who still think it's too hardcore. It's a problem entirely of Tripwire's own making and I doubt they will ever be able to pull the community back together again. The damage was done when the released game and the advertised game didn't match up. While I freely admit looking down on casual gamers, since I don't go to CoD and demand it be changed to suit my totally incompatible tastes, I am not mad at them since it wasn't their terrible choices that resulted in this mess.

 

[CocaineInMyBrain]

I have said before, and will continue to say, that the best course of action is to get rid of Classic, remove the offending features from realism (most of the problems contribute little or nothing to the game, or are actively detrimental, so the only people I see the change forcing away would be the most obnoxiously spoiled minority who won't play a game unless they can unlock things), and make that the game mode. I also strongly believe Action has no place in this game. It's a waste. CoD and any number of other, less realism-centric shooters do it better than action mode. If anyone bought this game purely for that mode, I feel sorry for them.

Of course, none of this would have been a problem at all and the community would never be under threat of splitting if Tripwire had just realised from the start that they had a comfortable niche and as long as they stood by their promise to deliver realism and authenticity, they would continue to have a small, but faithful, fanbase - which would expand over time anyway as the improvements RO2 introduced perhaps won over people deterred by RO's relative clunkiness.

Instead, we have a number of hardcore fans feeling basically betrayed and cheated, some of whom want to turn the game into some gimped rehash of Ostfront and others wanting the game to focus on being its own, more casual fans who are fine with things the way they are, and a bunch of people who still think it's too hardcore. It's a problem entirely of Tripwire's own making and I doubt they will ever be able to pull the community back together again. The damage was done when the released game and the advertised game didn't match up. While I freely admit looking down on casual gamers, since I don't go to CoD and demand it be changed to suit my totally incompatible tastes, I am not mad at them since it wasn't their terrible choices that resulted in this mess.

Agree except with bolded part, as I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this forum openly suggesting the game be made any simpler than it already is, especially since Action mode was introduced. In any case making major game-play changes at this point is going to be an absolute pain, especially with the bad blood already existing between OSTFront vets who want Ost2.0, OSTFront vets neutral about realism and action but want more realistic focused changes, and the people who are fine with the things are. TWI really have put themselves into a very delicate PR situation

 

[ross]

I want to say I have hope, but I really don't. As it is now, I try and justify the $40 to myself with "well the gunplay is incredible, it's pretty atmospheric just as long as you don't look at anyone using BS weapon unlocks or get shot by MKbs" (which usually lasts about five seconds flat, they are everywhere now), and sometimes there are scenes taking place which just about seem to be moving WWII photos". I can't say I love this game with no reservations whatsoever like I could with RO - in fact the most I can manage is begrudgingly admitting I enjoy it on enough of a level to have not uninstalled it and to play it quite regularly.

If TWI can somehow pull the community back together and salvage something I can recommend to my friends in good conscience from this, I might just regain faith, but until then I guess I get to just keep on playing for one or two rounds at a time before quitting in frustration and fuming over what could have been.