On Splitting The Community

[defektive]

There shouldn't be a classic, there shouldn't be a realism (which is relaxed?) and there shouldn't be a relaxed. There should be one gameplay base, Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad. It is clear what RO2 is designed for and what the community desires. Why water it down? It feels weak in all aspects as a result.

Back in the day that was exactly what was intended: Realism would be the hardcore approach that the Roosters know and love, and Relaxed would form the more accessible side of RO2 for the new / more casual players. The now infamous 11th hour shift in policy laid the foundations for what we now face: a multitude of modes and far too many fundamental rules server options. I worry that the three (four?) versions of the game, plus god only knows how many variations on those core themes c/o server options, are only going to engender a stochastic gaming experience within RO2. Choice is a laudable principle but there is such a thing as providing too much choice and thus sacrificing cohesion in the name of attempting to please everyone. (Design by committee projects often end up in a similar state.) I believe that such an approach works if a game has 50K+ players at peek gaming times but for a game with one hundred times fewer players I struggle to see how this will help RO2.

TWI have painted themselves into a corner with all of this and there is now no easy way to hammer the game to fit into the original (and much anticipated) design philosophy mould. Maybe TWI have now laid that philosophy to rest but I sincerely hope not because I think that can still be accomplished - but it

 

[MarioBava]

Look, I see so many people complaining about classic... Could somebody explain why realism is better? I'm legitimately curious as to what you don't like about classic.

They should be obvious, but I'll deliver a sampling of my complaints, in no particular order:

1)absence of shift zoom. Sorry, I like the fov compensation in principle and in practice. I know the IS zoom is most of the distance of the shift zoom, but there are reasons I like to be able to make the fov compensation for distance viewing when not aiming down the sights.

2)The whole package around movement speed, stamina, etc. I will admit the latest change to ease the transition between sprinting and out-of-stamina jog/walk is better/less jarring, but overall I just do not feel the movement in Ostfront/Classic mode is realistic or good for the tactical aspect. If I want to move slowly for tactical reasons in Realism, I do so by choice. But I don't want an artificially low cap on how fast I can run or for how far, for those times when tactically I need to haul ***.

3)absence of Lockdown. I was a fan of it in principle but was able to admit it needed tweaking. Now that it has been reworked in Realism, it is a nice feature without drawbacks to me and I honestly miss it in Classic.

4)absence of spawn on squad leader. While not always perfect (again, it has been reworked a bit, so it has been improved), I feel this was a good tactical tool. So again it's something that's been trimmed for Classic mode that I frankly miss.

5)absence of bandaging. Yes, I'll admit it could perhaps use some loving attention, but it's another one of those features I miss. There was a tactical element to the bandaging mechanic that is absent now in Classic. Shooting and wounding a player basically creates no modification in behavior for that player. They continue as if nothing happened. At least with bandaging mechanic in, they have a decision on whether to bandage or not, and where they are able to do so in relative safely. That means getting wounded has a tactical impact on player decision making. Which is a good feature in principle.

6)less of a deal breaker than the others, but I actually like the progression system (not as much of a fan of the how the unlocks turned out, but half the problem with those has been fixed by making them user-optional) as an idea. Most if not all of the things represented by it would be things that you would find varying aptitude in on any real battlefield, many of which veterans would be better at than raw recruits, and none of them are things which the game mechanics allow you to improve upon through player skill. There is no way in terms of game mechanics to practice and get more efficient at reloading, for example.

So that's just a few reasons I prefer Realism mode, especially in light of all the nice tweaks we have seen.

 

[SQBsam]

i think it's simply personal preference. i like classic, but i definitely prefer realism, mostly because of the faster pace and the (new) ability to select weapon upgrades.
i think variety is good, especially because server admins will have the option to create crossover modes like classic loadout realism and such.

Ah, I see. So it's the pace... I find that my fear for my life in Classic negates the slower pace, making smaller firefights seem more frantic than the biggest in realism, and as for 64player classic... My god it's fun.

 

[ro2player]

I think there's a misunderstanding. You can currently switch between territory, countdown, and firefight on servers that have them all in the rotation and map voting enabled (without voting, the server's rotation still switches between them). They are actually just different versions of the maps (in rotation list you'll notice abbreviations like TE, FF, CD before the map names to refer to these types). I think the post you're responding to means switching between Classic, Realism, and Relaxed/Action, which as far as I know cannot be done (and I for once agree with Cyper; a bad idea).

Do you see how many time take patches to be created and finished ?? Now with a second kind of gaming patches creation time will take more and more time for solve all problems. Problems of original RO 2 (territory coundown and firefitgh) and problems of RO classic (territory coundown and firefitgh).
In RO community we will not talk about the same game, the same kind of gaming.
I think solution can be to start creation from RO 2 original. Maybe with a mix of RO 2 original and RO classic. (there goods and bads ideas inside RO classic).

1)absence of shift zoom.
2)The whole package around movement speed, stamina, etc.
3)absence of Lockdown.
4)absence of spawn on squad leader.
5)absence of bandaging.
6)less of a deal breaker than the others, but I actually like the progression system (not as much of a fan of the how the unlocks turned out, but half the problem with those has been fixed by making them user-optional) as an idea.

1)absence of shift zoom.
zoom is a good idea of RO 2 original.
2)The whole package around movement speed, stamina, etc.
Movement speed is a good idea of RO 2 original.
3)absence of Lockdown.
Lockdown is a good idea of RO 2 original.
4)absence of spawn on squad leader.
spawn on squad leader is a good idea of RO 2 original.
5)absence of bandaging.
bandaging is a bad idea of RO 2 original. really bad thing...Bad idea.
6)less of a deal breaker than the others, but I actually like the progression system (not as much of a fan of the how the unlocks turned out, but half the problem with those has been fixed by making them user-optional) as an idea.
progession system is a bad idea of RO 2 original.

Another bad point for RO 2 : the woundness effect. It s not seem very realistic. When soldier is wounded he should lost his weapon (when he is wounded at his arm) or fall down on ground.(when he is wounded at his leg).

Then i think a good solution is a mix betwen RO 2 original and RO classic. The real solution it s not to split RO classic from Ro 2. But create RO classic from INSIDE of RO 2 original.

 

[Ducky]

Do you see how many time take patches to be created and finished ?? Now with a second kind of gaming patches creation time will take more and more time for solve all problems. Problems of original RO 2 (territory coundown and firefitgh) and problems of RO classic (territory coundown and firefitgh).
In RO community we will not talk about the same game, the same kind of gaming.
I think solution can be to start creation from RO 2 original. Maybe with a mix of RO 2 original and RO classic. (there goods and bads ideas inside RO classic).

Not true. The code-base for RO2 and classic RO2 is the same code-base with some condition blocks depending on the mode. It's not like there are 2 complete different code-bases now. That would be a nightmare to maintain. It's still one code-base which needs to be maintained.

 

[ro2player]

Not true. The code-base for RO2 and classic RO2 is the same code-base with some condition blocks depending on the mode. It's not like there are 2 complete different code-bases now. That would be a nightmare to maintain. It's still one code-base which needs to be maintained.

RO2 community will become a community with one game with 2 ways of gaming. Game experiences will be not the same. We will not talk about the same thing. Creation of a RO classic from inside of RO 2 and not outside of RO 2 could hepled the game and the community to stay united. RO 2 need RO classic created from inside of it and not at its side look like a new RO 2 (and an opponent RO 2). Defenders of RO 2 original will become traitors of RO classic game.

 

[Ducky]

RO2 community will become a community with one game with 2 ways of gaming. Game experiences will be not the same. We will not talk about the same thing.

I was replying to your assumption that it would take more time to solve things because of problems in original RO2 and classic RO2.

Do you see how many time take patches to be created and finished ?? Now with a second kind of gaming patches creation time will take more and more time for solve all problems. Problems of original RO 2 (territory coundown and firefitgh) and problems of RO classic (territory coundown and firefitgh).
---SNIP---

(snipped out the part were you talked about 2 gamining experiences)

 

[ro2player]

I was replying to your assumption that it would take more time to solve things because of problems in original RO2 and classic RO2.
(snipped out the part were you talked about 2 gamining experiences)

Yes. Two ways of gaming. Two communities. As i said. Community should stay united by one way of gaming...Having two ways of gaming will not help communities, and patches community coming.
It s not only a question of time, but a question of "first place". RO 2 original had first place. Now RO classic will have first place. ROHOS was based on RO 2 original for main patches. Now ROHOS will based on RO classic patches. With the new patch RO 2 original will be switch by RO classic. Then we will see RO 2 original community will be switch by RO classic community. RO classic will have first its patches. RO 2 original will have secondary its patches. RO classic will become the main community of ROHOS. ( you can see in the fourm a poll asking to remove ALL way of gaming except RO classic ! On the opposite : for the moment i have never see RO 2 original asking to remove RO classic.) I have ever talking about 2 gaming experiences. Consequence will be the split of the community. Two ways of gaming inside the same game. It s not look like a modification who exist OUTSIDE of a game. The problem is INSIDE RO 2 itself.
RO classic will create a "Advanced Red Orchestra" game. But what life for RO 2 original now ? Why RO 2 original can't become advanced game now ? why advanced RO 2 is forced to be linked to RO classic ?

 

[Ducky]

Yes. Two ways of gaming. Two communities. As i said. Community should stay united by one way of gaming...Having two ways of gaming will not help communities, and patches community coming.
It s not only a question of time, but a question of "first place". RO 2 original had first place. Now RO classic will have first place. ROHOS was based on RO 2 original for main patches. Now ROHOS will based on RO classic patches. With the new patch RO 2 original will be switch by RO classic. Then we will see RO 2 original community will be switch by RO classic community. RO classic will have first its patches. RO 2 original will have secondary its patches. RO classic will become the main community of ROHOS. ( you can see in the fourm a poll asking to remove ALL way of gaming except RO classic ! On the opposite : for the moment i have never see RO 2 original asking to remove RO classic.) I have ever talking about 2 gaming experiences. Consequence will be the split of the community. Two ways of gaming inside the same game. It s not look like a modification who exist OUTSIDE of a game. The problem is INSIDE RO 2 itself.

Sorry, but can't follow half of your argumentation

It's all speculation. You are forgetting one major variable in your argumentation. You asume that all RO2 players are member on this forum and did vote. The majority of the members are actually ROOST players and they always wanted and expected RO2 to be a ROOST 2 (with that I mean a close successor). The majority of them did probably vote for classic (which is understandable).

Also my argumantation is pure specualtion. Only time will tell which mode will be played the most.

Edit: Corrected typo

 

[ro2player]

You asume that all RO2 players are member on this forum and did vote.

No. RO classic gamers voted for remove all way of gaming except RO classic. I din't see for the moment poll for remove all way of gaming except RO 2 original ? Watch the forum.

Among "ideas and suggestions", in the post : Classic to replace all other modes

The thought crossed my mind while reading another thread. I realize this whole idea may seem very far removed, and maybe even unrealistic, but I would still like to hear other peoples opinion about it. I am not creating this thread with the thought that I would persuade the majority but rather to make people absorb and reflect about this idea. So there is no need for anyone to get bleedy about it.

The reason why this idea crossed my mind in the first place was because of action mode. I believe all different modes creates fractions within the community, and I believe the more modes you have, the more fractions you get and there is indeed many modes in this game. The question is whenever they're usefull for the game or not. How many people play Relaxed Realism? How many people will play Action Mode? Realism Mode? How many will play Classic? And who does all this modes aim at? One thing is for sure: each mode steals players from the other. Simplicity would ultimately be only to have one mode - that is RO CLASSIC - but not called Ro Classic. Not called anything at all. Just multiplayer and that's it. Sometimes Red Orchestra is just red orchestra; not action, not relaxed, not realistic, not classic.

And this : the consequence :

Among "ideas and suggestions", in the post : Idea for changelog and why [Classic Mode]

For me Classic is not mode. It's RO2 as a whole. Without Classic there is no reason for me to play the game at all. Classic is not an option for me. Its the only way. So I either play Classic or don't play at all.

The reason why I wrote that this thread is first and foremost for Classic Mode is because I wanted Relaxed Realism- and realism Mode advocates (who that may be!) to steer clear because that they might suggest bad ideas that then will affect Classic Mode. People who prefer lockdown, unlock systems, quick bandaging, and other rubbish, is likely to contribute things from this point of view. This point of view is not in line with Classic. That is why I don't want to discuss Classic Mode with all other modes in the same thread. Because then some people might go ''I don't want this in realism mode because blabla' and so on.

Then of course, if people feel that the suggestions I made in this thread fits well for Realism Mode - be my guest. I applaud that. But I do suggest to discuss that separately from this thread. Classic and Realism must be as separated as the Nazi's and the Jews during WW2. The other option is the Final Solution for modes, e.i Classic to be the only mode.

Consequence of the RO classic way of gaming betwen relationship of RO2 gamers. Defenders of "heroes of stalingrad" will become traitors of RO classic now. (and already)
Am i wrong ? For the moment, there is no poll asking the opposite (who is the same opposite error, who will broke RO gamers in 2 part).

The majority of the members are actually ROOST players and they always wanted and expected RO2 to be a ROOST 2 (with that a mean a close successor).

A successor include always fixed things and things who changed. No? RO gamers wait not a second RO 1. RO 2 is not a second RO 2 or a RO 1 with graphism of RO 2.

RO 2 original need to changed. Ok. But this game need to change not by RO classic who will exist outside of RO 2 original but change with RO classic modifications from RO 2 original. (fews RO classic ideas are goods)
Solution is a mix beten RO 2 original and RO classic, a mix. (and by this way the community is keep united)

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Honestly, I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't see a split in the community because of this except maybe some people on the forums. As long as all modes are easily accessable from the game browser there should not be a problem.

Some people are trying to make a bigger problem out of this than it is.

 

[ButchCassidy]

Honestly, I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't see a split in the community because of this except maybe some people on the forums. As long as all modes are easily accessable from the game browser there should not be a problem.

Some people are trying to make a bigger problem out of this than it is.

I agree if all servers are shown in the same browser then what split?

Splits happen when users are forced to use a different access method which is not going to happen in this instance..

As for forcing people to play the new Classic Mode buy removing all other modes all I can say is "what a dumb idea"..lol..Now that would split this community..lol

 

[ro2player]

Honestly, I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't see a split in the community because of this except maybe some people on the forums. As long as all modes are easily accessable from the game browser there should not be a problem.

Some people are trying to make a bigger problem out of this than it is.

Defenders of "heroes of stalingrad" will become traitors of RO classic now. (as this kind of poll start to show it). We will not talk about the same experience about RO2 original (or RO classic).

As for forcing people to play the new Classic Mode buy removing all other modes all I can say is "what a dumb idea"..lol..Now that would split this community..lol

Ideas are linked. Second exist because first exist...Now ROHOS was RO2 original based on and will become RO classic based on. By this patch RO 2 will switch its base. RO 2 original gamers will become 2nd base. RO classic will take the 1s base. Now it's RO classic who will structured the ROHOS.

Hey guys...it's not me who create poll asking to remove all mods except RO classic. It's not normal to see this kind of poll. Why nobody defend "RO2 original" ?? and only "RO classic" ? All the job created inside "RO classic" should take place inside "RO 2 original" without "RO classic" already. Why good idea should be only for "RO classic" now ? Why make "RO2 original" a desert ? (because "RO2 original" will surely become a desert).

 

[tixhal]

once the update goes live we will see which mode will be the most popular. i guess there will be lots of servers with customized settings. (for example the 50 player pgg server seems to be very popular, it runs "realism" with sidearms for everyone and friendly names visible in the distance). it's not my personal preference, but i play there often, because it is always populated, teamkilling is rather rare because of the visible names, the ping is decent and so on.
i also play on the 40-1 server sometimes, because it uses vanilly realism settings (correct me if i missed something). but i'm not a big fan of 64 player battles on most maps, that's why i prefer the pgg server, even if the settings aren't perfect for me it gives me the best playing experience.
now with client side hit detection, that all may change.
maybe i'll end up playing on a 64 player classic server all the time, it's hard to tell at the moment. people are drawn to well populated servers, whatever the settings are. the more populated servers there will be after the free weekend, the better. even (or especially) if they all run different hybrid gamemodes, people will find a place to play that suits them best.

 

[ro2player]

once the update goes live we will see which mode will be the most popular. QUOTE]

Yes the better thing is to continue to play RO 2. (RO2 original or RO classic as you want... but play.)

 

[Holy.Death]

Solution is a mix beten RO 2 original and RO classic, a mix. (and by this way the community is keep united)

I am not sure if that's possible.

Group A: There are people who play Realism and are quite content with the game design.

Group B: There are people who play Classic are like it much more than vanilla.

You can't claim that A and B can be merged together, because for some B is too slow and for some A is too fast. Making a single game mode with values set somewhere in the middle will make both groups unhappy and forcing one group to play the mode of another group is worse solution than making two separated modes for them. You can't accomodate fire and ice.

I fail to see why it's a bad idea. Except for the argument of splitting the resources between game modes, which is true to a degree. It can create larger potential playerbase, if the whole project will succeed. It's a risk, but who won't risk he won't gain anything. I think weeks after the release of Beta should bring an answer to a few questions.

It's not normal to see this kind of poll. Why nobody defend "RO2 original" ??

You put wrong questions and present inaccurate conclusions. Going on crusade to "defend RO2 original" would be just as wrong as creating polls to remove Classic from the game. It'd serve no real purpose. In the end the effects of the poll are speaking for itself. That's the best defense. Furthermore Realism can be "RO2 original". There are people playing RO2, quite a number of them. They simply don't post so much. The game itself will soon give us answers we seek.

 

[MarioBava]

Defenders of RO 2 original will become traitors of RO classic game.

The "treason" of playing one game mode over the other is far better than that of quitting the game altogether, which is what happened when the 4 of 6 examples of things you and I actually like about original RO2 pissed people off because to them they changed things too much from Ostfront.

I'm glad you agreed with 4 out of 6 of my points about what I don't like about classic mode. I'd play on a server that was running custom with those four things but not the others. Would I play on a custom that had only 2 of the six? Probably not, but it might depend on which two. But this highlights exactly why a single game mode is an almost impossible option at this point. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, and TWI is simply choosing the democratic approach. You and I like the zoom, but a lot of people don't. So while your ideal hybrid of classic and original RO2 looks like a solid game to you, if TWI imposed your vision and locked the game into only that as the one game mode available, it will have a feature that many people totally hate; and when the option to find a server without it is not on offer, they'll just quit the game totally.

 

[ro2player]

I am not sure if that's possible.

Group A: There are people who play Realism and are quite content with the game design.

Group B: There are people who play Classic are like it much more than vanilla.

You can't claim that A and B can be merged together, because for some B is too slow and for some A is too fast. Making a single game mode with values set somewhere in the middle will make both groups unhappy and forcing one group to play the mode of another group is worse solution than making two separated modes for them. You can't accomodate fire and ice.

I have never say it will be easy. Understand me well : EVERYTHING in RO classic is not good as the same way EVERYTHING in RO2 original is not bad.

I say : all the job (good job mainly) of RO classic has to be started from RO2 original (with RO classic ideas).

And it's create a second way of gaming don't help it. With RO classic we have a second way of gaming at the side of the first way of gaming of RO2 original.

People who said RO2 original is only bad are wrongs.
People who said RO classic is only good are wrongs too.

You put wrong questions and present inaccurate conclusions. Going on crusade to "defend RO2 original" would be just as wrong as creating polls to remove Classic from the game. It'd serve no real purpose. In the end the effects of the poll are speaking for itself. That's the best defense. Furthermore Realism can be "RO2 original". There are people playing RO2, quite a number of them. They simply don't post so much. The game itself will soon give us answers we seek.

hey guy, you don't understand me. If RO2 original can change in better way i am ok with it. I mean if all the job of RO classic can work on RO 2 original it will be great. Again, all the job (good job mainly) of RO classic has to be started from RO2 original (with RO classic ideas).

The "treason" of playing one game mode over the other is far better than that of quitting the game altogether, which is what happened when the 4 of 6 examples of things you and I actually like about original RO2 pissed people off because to them they changed things too much from Ostfront.

I'm glad you agreed with 4 out of 6 of my points about what I don't like about classic mode. I'd play on a server that was running custom with those four things but not the others. Would I play on a custom that had only 2 of the six? Probably not, but it might depend on which two. But this highlights exactly why a single game mode is an almost impossible option at this point. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, and TWI is simply choosing the democratic approach. You and I like the zoom, but a lot of people don't. So while your ideal hybrid of classic and original RO2 looks like a solid game to you, if TWI imposed your vision and locked the game into only that as the one game mode available, it will have a feature that many people totally hate; and when the option to find a server without it is not on offer, they'll just quit the game totally.

Mario i say : Everything in RO 2 original is not bad as the way everything in RO classic is not good.

RO classic gamers want already to change few things in this way of gaming.

RO 2 must to be a good game from RO 2 base, it's mean from itself and not from the remenbering of RO 1.

 

[>< f4ct0r...13]

I agree if all servers are shown in the same browser then what split?

Splits happen when users are forced to use a different access method which is not going to happen in this instance..

As for forcing people to play the new Classic Mode buy removing all other modes all I can say is "what a dumb idea"..lol..Now that would split this community..lol

This argument does not consider some things:

Multiple versions of the game are loaded on to the computer separate from the other. I'll only have one version loaded.

The history of RO. We didn't stay on for so many years because of the flashing lights. In fact, I stayed on because there *were no* flashing lights.

Competition. Anyone we got with the flashing lights will go to the next flashing lights soon enough.

I am on a development team for a living. You can't look at it one way. This was a caustic fault in the original development path.

 

[Max Damage]

I hope they whitelist and include the antilag mutator into the next patch. its another thing that splits the community really badly. Also the tank/no tank servers split the community terribly. I dont mind even the AI mgers.