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Classic to replace all other modes

Classic to replace all other modes


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I agree and probably everyone would agree that proposing now for the Classic to replace all other modes would be a little unjudicious. Although there's a truth in Cyper posts and I believe he doesn't necessarily mean that it should be replaced now months after the release.

But I think it's just an endeavour to make the manifestation that RO2 generally would've been successful, had the game been made to the more RO tactical approach which is the most historically accurate.

Then eventually if players would complain about being too extreme, make the relaxed mode. But hey, did anyone complain about RO1 being too hard back in the days? I don't think it would have even been necessary to make it.
 
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Ironically enough, ''Hardcore Mode'' in Red River followed the same philosophy: Remove HUD and its all good.

Funny, I remember someone saying basically just that in regards to criticisms of Arma 2...

If we actually listen to critics on this board, or on Metacritic where there are various user reviews, there is a lot of complaints regarding lack of realism, to much realism, and unstable, buggy and laggy gameplay.

Looking at the reviews, the opinion toward realism varies greatly, although RO2 is typically praised for its realism, rather than criticized. The main complaints are the bugs (Usually from the early reviews, with the bugs at launch), and "bad hit detection," which is to say, disliking the network method of the game that degrades the performance of shooting.

I also think that's why there is typically such a small and self-selected opinion on these forums. Most of the people who have problems with the networking model have moved on to other games, leaving only the smaller group who is content with that method on these forums. That small group, becoming so dominant on these forums, then gets a disproportionately loud voice to clamor in TWI's ear for changes that push the game further and further from what the broader range of realism-interested players want.

The disconnect between the popular opinions held on these forums and those held elsewhere on the internet is marked. There are enormous numbers of complaints about "hit detection." While some seem interested in Classic mode, most opinions off these forums apparently hold it below Realism, many even questioning why people would want to go backwards, and with many of the ones who like the sound of it still having reservations toward or straight-up disapproving of some of the changes (Also, relevant to recent topics, there are a good number of people who have asked for the features being put in Action mode, despite the claims that nobody has asked for it). And increasingly, particularly on gaming forums, there is sentiment that one of the largest problems for RO2 is the official forums, and the minority of players who frequent them and who are, therefor, the loudest voice for change; that RO2 is likely to be another game with great potential ruined by "fixing" it for the community, the community that happens to be largely at-odds with the majority of interested players.
 
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Funny, I remember someone saying basically just that in regards to criticisms of Arma 2...



Looking at the reviews, the opinion toward realism varies greatly, although RO2 is typically praised for its realism, rather than criticized. The main complaints are the bugs (Usually from the early reviews, with the bugs at launch), and "bad hit detection," which is to say, disliking the network method of the game that degrades the performance of shooting.

I also think that's why there is typically such a small and self-selected opinion on these forums. Most of the people who have problems with the networking model have moved on to other games, leaving only the smaller group who is content with that method on these forums. That small group, becoming so dominant on these forums, then gets a disproportionately loud voice to clamor in TWI's ear for changes that push the game further and further from what the broader range of realism-interested players want.

The disconnect between the popular opinions held on these forums and those held elsewhere on the internet is marked. There are enormous numbers of complaints about "hit detection." While some seem interested in Classic mode, most opinions off these forums apparently hold it below Realism, many even questioning why people would want to go backwards, and with many of the ones who like the sound of it still having reservations toward or straight-up disapproving of some of the changes (Also, relevant to recent topics, there are a good number of people who have asked for the features being put in Action mode, despite the claims that nobody has asked for it). And increasingly, particularly on
gaming forums, there is sentiment that one of the largest problems for RO2 is the offici al forums, and the minority of players who frequent them and who are, therefor, the loudest voice for change; that RO2 is likely to be another game with great potential ruined by "fixing" it for the community, the community that happens to be largely at-odds with the majority of interested players.

Still have yet to see any links about these other communities
 
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Still have yet to see any links about these other communities
I'll add my personal experience, with all the usual caveats about anecdotes versus data. RO2 gets mentioned somewhat often in the forums of other FPS games, usually as an example of how not to release what's intended to be a major title. While I'm glad that Brink's no longer the whipping boy (I really liked Brink :( ) it's certainly not a good thing to exist in the general consciousness primarily as a warning to others. Gameplay details are almost never mentioned, it's always the technical state of the game that gets panned.

The major complaints on the Steam RO2 forums are overwhelmingly about technical issues. On the rare occasion it even goes into gameplay territory, you hear as much clamor for changes in the "Action" direction as you do the "Classic" mode. These would be the guys that are motivating Action mode.

RO2 comes up fairly often in comments on Rock, Paper, Shotgun, almost universally in the context of "a potentially great game crippled by technical problems and a rushed release". To the extent that anyone there knows or cares about classic mode, it's framed with a question like "why are they doing this when basic things are still broken?". IMO, RPS has a reader base that pretty heavily overlaps with what should be RO2's demographic, so I think this trend is kind of a big deal.

A friend recently pointed me to a lengthy thread (going all the way back to RO1) on somethingawful which was interesting reading. Even the posters initially in favor of Classic mode now consider it one step forward and two steps back. A lot of criticism about technical issues and, again, confusion at the priorities of update goals. Add more hyperbole and vulgarity, of course, it -is- SA after all :D, but that's no reason to ignore it.

All in all, I think it's pretty safe to say that the perception of the game elsewhere online is radically different from the perception found on these forums.

What I think is particularly telling is the difference between the poll here about "which mode do you want to play" and the counterpart poll on the forum for the 2fjg server. You don't even have to go to the larger online gaming community as a whole to find significantly divergent viewpoints from these forums...just going more in the direction of people who are actually playing RO2 right now is enough.
 
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A lot of people simply didn't get passed the initial performance/stability/bug issues to get a proper sense of how the game plays. The game could have taken off as a mainstream title but theres absolutely no chance with basic things like stats broken, high pings on servers and bad performance/stutters. You have to hit the ground running with modern game releases and RO2 was just nowhere near ready for the audience they were aiming for.

Then we could talk about whether the game was too hard or too easy, but as it is the mainstream ditched it pretty fast once BF3 came out. As it is its a bit of guesswork as to whether it needs to be easier for the mainstream or not, and it needs to be balanced with whether its worth putting their existing fanbase in a position where they aren't sure if they want to continue supporting them. Crosshairs is actually a pretty big deal when it comes to RO, and in a way it just shows to what extent TWI may have fallen from their original design vision for the RO game series.

I could link a recent blog entry by bswearer that puts an interesting side to the argument forward but i'm not sure if i'll get shot by a mod for it. Its well written but very damning towards TWI and the idea behind a crosshair mode. If you wanted to find it i'm sure you could

I'm in two minds with the whole thing and can see it from both sides. What matters most to me is TWI's overall intentions and whether it would actually work to bring people to RO or if it would just make people think less of the game after trying action mode
 
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On the Steam forums I actually saw more posts about Classic than anything else tech problems excluded. Got tired of reading actually and the maturity level there is quite a few steps down from here.

Just like to add I did try the Google route as well for about 15 minutes. In the articles/forums I did look at I saw very little to none about players wanting the game to be more mainstream like Action mode has been presented to us. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but where are they residing, in the Activision forums?
 
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Just like to add I did try the Google route as well for about 15 minutes. In the articles/forums I did look at I saw very little to none about players wanting the game to be more mainstream like Action mode has been presented to us. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but where are they residing, in the Activision forums?

Actually Moe, they're investing their free time in playing the games they enjoy.. instead of making demands, squawking and griping on forums. :D

Rest assured, they're out there. ;)
 
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Actually Moe, they're investing their free time in playing the games they enjoy.. instead of making demands, squawking and griping on forums. :D

Rest assured, they're out there. ;)

My point being, I could skip the forums altogether, not read or post and just play ROHOS. BUT if and when Classic mode comes out I will like that mode better.

You cannot and should not assume that just because someone doesn't post and might be playing the game, that they are going to prefer keeping the game exactly as it was released (minus bugs etc). You just know some people are going to say WOW, this Classic mode is pretty good they should have done this with the initial release. I have even seen it on these forums where there were players against the whole idea but then they tested it in the beta and were very impressed.

Obviously the same argument can go the other way as well, but to assume the 'silent majority' wouldn't want to see improvements in the game is just naive. All it means is that they just aren't the type of post their opinions or don't think it is worth their time.
 
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My point being, I could skip the forums altogether, not read or post and just play ROHOS. BUT if and when Classic mode comes out I will like that mode better.
Your point is well taken and understood. However, its your point and your preferences. Just as you have yours, others myself included, have theirs. All must be taken into account and considered valid. If and when the updates occur, I'll play all the styles and at the same time make certain the RGN Servers reflect the same so everyone has an opportunity to enjoy the style of HoS gameplay they prefer.
You cannot and should not assume that just because someone doesn't post and might be playing the game, that they are going to prefer keeping the game exactly as it was released (minus bugs etc). You just know some people are going to say WOW, this Classic mode is pretty good they should have done this with the initial release. I have even seen it on these forums where there were players against the whole idea but then they tested it in the beta and were very impressed.
I learned a long, long, time ago to never "assume" anything. The active player counts on Steam alone indicate there are far more players active in the games than there ever are in the forums. Everyone no matter their prefs, enjoys variety and choice so I am far from asking/demanding that the game remain as is. There, you are assuming that of me. :) As for people changing their minds, that's a very natural and highly acceptable action on the part of humans. I'm certain there are those who tried Classic and were impressed just as there are those who tried Realism and Action and were equally impressed.
Obviously the same argument can go the other way as well, but to assume the 'silent majority' wouldn't want to see improvements in the game is just naive. All it means is that they just aren't the type of post their opinions are don't think it is worth their time.
Again you assume that's what is meant by "more are playing instead of squawking". The "Silent Majority" whomever they may be, are in the wings waiting to see. Just as they did before the HoS release. They did indeed post their opinions at one time... now they await the results of their voicing their likes and dislikes.
In closing we are pretty much in agreement. I've known you online for quite a few years and respect your opinions and you have respected mine. As such, I decided to offer this missive. My only hope is that the upgrade/updates/fixes do the job. We've certainly waited long enough and withstood all the negativity and bashing. The game itself is worth the patience we offer.
 
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Actually Moe, they're investing their free time in playing the games they enjoy.. instead of making demands, squawking and griping on forums. :D

Rest assured, they're out there. ;)
Exactly - they are playing the games they want to play already. More than likely they will go back to those games regardless of Action mode, because those games do that style of gameplay better than RO2 ever will.

In fact, let's take a moment to go over why CoD is the massive seller it is. It's not a particularly good game by any objective standards, but it consistently outsells everything and generates tons of hype. Other studios see this and attempt to emulate its success by copying the simple forumla that the game is built on, and more often than not they flop horribly. Is it because they're bad copies? No, some are actually quite faithful. It's because they aren't Call of Duty. CoD isn't where it is today because of anything any dev can copy. It is there because it is the game people harass their friends into playing. Its enormous playerbase is what makes it sell, not the game itself. If it lost most of those players, it'd die out just like its clones do. Trying to mimic the game is not going to help anybody.

In any case, it's "making demands, squawking and griping" that helps things improve. It's called criticism. You know what doesn't help anyone? Spoon-feeding complements and white knighting. Maybe I'd agree with you if people were making personal attacks against Tripwire employees and saying the game sucks while providing no reasons why they hold that belief, but pointing out flaws, suggesting ways of fixing them, and describing why they are a problem is called constructive criticism and is considered a desireable form of feedback by artists and developers the world over. I suggest you learn the difference between it and outright insults, as you seem to have considerable difficulty understanding the concept.
 
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