WASD -Tank Turret Control

[Nikita]

Well, yes, that's why I said that. I didn't mean "joystick-like" in that the actual input device was shaped like a stick, I meant in that it delivered a continuous, adjustable-magnitude input similar to a potentiometer. As in, something that's not even remotely similar in feel, effect or precision to digital keys.

I suppose I could see putting elevation on keys and leaving traverse on the pseudo-stick floating input. Keys aren't much like cranking a wheel, but that does at least confer an abstract version of the feel & precision difference between the traverse and elevation controls.

But yeah, the flawed armor modeling is a much bigger deal.

Ah, I see...

The Panzer IV turret did indeed have variable traverse speed (and since the elevation controls were hand-cranked, it had variable elevation speed as well). The T-34, however, had a single set traverse speed (assuming the finicky electric traverse was working that day, comrade ) but also hand-cranked elevation controls.

So if anything, Elevation should be mouse-controlled for both tanks, and traverse should be controlled by the arrow keys for the T-34, while it should be controlled by the arrow keys with multiple settings for speed for the Panzer IV? Or maybe you should wheel your mouse in a circular pattern to simulate the hand traverse? Which just goes to show that after a point, historical accuracy can only be pursued so far...

Still, I think the main problem with mouse control is that you can expertly manipulate the elevation controls at the same time as the turret traverse, when (as accurately animated in-game) your gunner would have to crank both wheels, one powered, one unpowered, at the same time, in various directions to accomplish that feat. Making nice little spirals with the main gun like you can do in-game would be extraordinarily difficult in the actual tank. More difficult than trying to rub your belly and tapping your head to the beat of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" at the same time and then switch your hands, tapping your belly while rubbing your head, without losing a beat.

I suppose there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. With WASD, you are unquestionably at more of a disadvantage, with some of those disadvantages being perhaps historically inaccurate. With the mouse, however, you perhaps have more of an advantage than a blood-and-flesh tanker would have had at Stalingrad.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Isn't the traverse on the Pz4 and T-34 controlled by a joystick-like electric analog input? The pseudo-stick mouse input is closer to that action than a digital input would be.

No, in most German tanks (Pz.IV,V & VI etc.) foot pedals were used to control their variable speed electric or hydraulic powered traverse systems, with the amount of pressure put on the pedals dictating the speed at which the turret traversed, whilst a handwheel was provided for manual traverse when the engine was turned off. Main gun elevation was achieved manually via a handwheel.

In Russian tanks it was pretty much the same, except they used a more simple single speed eletric powered traverse system which was controlled via a simple push lever. Gun elevation was again achieved manually via a handwheel.

 

[MarioBava]

And why the tank is jumping after every shot?
TigerPanzer - (Übungsabgriff U. -Schiessen) - 1943 - YouTube
It

 

[ross]

I think arrow keys would potentially be a better solution. The difficulty lies in the time it would take to implement a button based solution in general.

I think the pay-off would be worth the effort. I don't even bother with tanks now as I found mouse control impossible to use effectively, and everywhere I've seen gripes come up about the tanks, that is the biggest one. Some people do somehow live with mouse control, though, so perhaps make it an option that defaults to WASD? Keep the mouse control people happy, and make tanks actually fun to play gunner in again for the rest of us.

Honestly, this is such a big thing that I would say it should be prioritised very highly.

e/ For what it's worth, I was able to make accurate hits using the WASD system in RO out past 1.5km, first shot. Most of that was down to being able to estimate range well, but there was a technique too - begin traversing the gun before dropping back down inside the hatch, then line it up through the gunsight, fire. It was fast and simple, and I'd estimate it taking less than five seconds from me spotting a target to getting my friend in the driver's seat to stop, traversing the gun, selecting the range setting, and having a shot in the air. With the current system... it takes me at least double that, and I have great difficulty aiming with the mouse. To me, mouse input for something with very separate traverse/elevation inputs just doesn't 'feel' right, and I can't seem to do it. I even have trouble with it in World of Tanks...

 

[MarioBava]

e/ For what it's worth, I was able to make accurate hits using the WASD system in RO out past 1.5km, first shot. Most of that was down to being able to estimate range well, but there was a technique too - begin traversing the gun before dropping back down inside the hatch, then line it up through the gunsight, fire. It was fast and simple, and I'd estimate it taking less than five seconds from me spotting a target to getting my friend in the driver's seat to stop, traversing the gun, selecting the range setting, and having a shot in the air. With the current system... it takes me at least double that, and I have great difficulty aiming with the mouse.

You know, I truly didn't understand the dislike of mouse control of the turret...until you described this technique of traversing the gun while unhatched, which it does seem is not possible in RO2 except perhaps, now that I think of it, by tricking the bots to line it up for you. I can see that as a legitimate issue now, thanks!

 

[Mike_Nomad]

You know, I truly didn't understand the dislike of mouse control of the turret...until you described this technique of traversing the gun while unhatched, which it does seem is not possible in RO2 except perhaps, now that I think of it, by tricking the bots to line it up for you. I can see that as a legitimate issue now, thanks!

Mario,

For what its worth, its purely a matter of personal preferences... I played the living daylights out of RO and DH and I might add, especially in Tanks.. (loved every split second)... Still go back for more.

In RO2, I had to change my style of play primarily when in a Tank. Now, I am very comfy with the Tank controls as they are in RO2 and honestly do not feel hobbled in any way. In fact, I feel using the mouse is better performance-wise than RO.

Bottom line.... it all about personal preferences.

 

[Cwivey]

You know, I truly didn't understand the dislike of mouse control of the turret...until you described this technique of traversing the gun while unhatched, which it does seem is not possible in RO2 except perhaps, now that I think of it, by tricking the bots to line it up for you. I can see that as a legitimate issue now, thanks!

You can traverse your turret while unhatched in RO2, just left click in the direction you want to aim at and your turret will move there, works for the T34 (In vannilla now) and the PIV (In the Beta now).

 

[Lutze]

I like the new tank system in general, but not a massive fan of mouse control. Shame it would take time to be implemented with WASD.

My problem is usually at range. I get a hit, but twitch or sneeze or something and then have to find that tiny sweet spot all over, wasting more time and rounds. It's hard, at least with my mouse sensitivity and/or lack of steady hand, to fire without moving it at least a little bit every few shots. I think a button system also more accurately reflects the tanks of the period, the mouse is a little too fluid. T-34's and Panzer IV's had fairly rudimentary traverse and elevation controls.

 

[defektive]

I miss WASD turret/gun elevation control. Tanks are meant to be a stable firing platform but with mouse control they're far more twitchy and fiddly, esp. at long range, than their WASD counterparts. WASD control also feels more authentic from a game play standpoint whereas mouse control does feel quite a bit 'cheaper' (cf. UT3-ish).

It is a genuine shame that the work involved in returning to WASD control is apparently not insignificant because as any tanker gamer will tell you the tank has to feel as real as possible every bit as much as it should perform as realistically as possible.

 

[akb]

Who asked for the AI in the tanks anyways? I liked to actually tank with people in ro1, not this one man tanking with bots, it causes rambo tanking that shouldn't be there. Not to mention it's not nearly as fun.

 

[akb]

Agreed! WASD controls are where it's at. It may take awhile but we've got awhile Maybe twi should hire this out?

 

[akb]

I like the new tank system in general, but not a massive fan of mouse control. Shame it would take time to be implemented with WASD.

My problem is usually at range. I get a hit, but twitch or sneeze or something and then have to find that tiny sweet spot all over, wasting more time and rounds. It's hard, at least with my mouse sensitivity and/or lack of steady hand, to fire without moving it at least a little bit every few shots. I think a button system also more accurately reflects the tanks of the period, the mouse is a little too fluid. T-34's and Panzer IV's had fairly rudimentary traverse and elevation controls.

Not to mention people like me w/15 in screens. The mouse control is useleses for me at long range just like rifle shooting is or rather nearly useless.

 

[MarioBava]

Who asked for the AI in the tanks anyways? I liked to actually tank with people in ro1, not this one man tanking with bots, it causes rambo tanking that shouldn't be there. Not to mention it's not nearly as fun.

Lone tanking was rampant in RO1. So was tank griefing related to human crews.

The RO2 system does not take human crew members out of the picture. They're still superior (especially now with tank tweaks coming soon) and still more fun.

 

[Kleist]

Some Videos:



RO 1 Tankbattle :IS2:

Red Orchestra Tiger tank - YouTube


IS2 - YouTube :IS2::IS2:

RO 2 Tankbattle

Red Orchestra 2 Beta Gumrack Tanks only server - YouTube

what do you see and think when you observe the move of the gun cotontrol?

 

[Avtomat]

RO - Alien Stahl IS-2 - YouTube

IS2 strikes again

 

[ross]

Panther on AZ - Reign of Terror - YouTube

40 mins of Panthering on Alte Ziegelei in Darkest Hour. Used to love this map in RO, about 4 years ago I would play it religiously with a friend from school as my driver. Was delighted to see it come up again.

It's really dark (because, well, it's a dark map), but you can see the important bits well enough.

Excuse the rather talkative friend also in our Skype call

 

[eM*]

I hate this system. Not only were using mouse now, but I cant also move turret, or can I? Maybe didnt found how yet.

When Im pressing the wsad, I can move tank, wich for me is the most pointless thing to do. I want to move the tower, like we could do in RO1. Get in the tank, park it somewhere, stick the head out, look around, and move the tower where I want to.

 

[Cwivey]

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=81025

You can traverse your turret while unhatched in RO2, just left click in the direction you want to aim at and your turret will move there, works for the T34 (In vannilla now) and the PIV (In the Beta now).

's a matter of personal preference though.

 

[ross]

Yeah, I much preferred doing it with the keyboard. The mouse system is janky as hell and the gun doesn't always seem to point exactly where you want it to. I also used to sweep the turret independently of what I was actually looking at, which is now impossible.

 

[Proud_God]

WASD just FEELS better, imo. You can't ignore feelings Would be really nice if TWI implemeted this as a server option (so no one complains that one method has an advantage over an other)