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Heroes of Stalingrad

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#61
Mmm Just had a listen..I will disagree with nKM and say that there was an undercurrent of "Who the hell do these TWI-RO guys think they are" from quite a few guys.

But I thought it was quite healthy to have as it added some depth and spice to the podcast..Alan and John are big boys and can easily handle hecklers or would-be-bullies..lol

The questions were from players only used to playing competition in their own games.
Which admitedly had some negatives but at least these players realised there are other games which offer competitive play that is maybe a little more challenging than their own chosen favourite.
Some will rise to that challenge, others will ignore it or simply disregard it.

But at least they are all now aware of it..

Finally I think adding something like crosshairs to appease a small minority would not make RO the game it is.
If players want to experince the game as it was designed and intended to be played then they'll have to get over the "no crosshairs"..besides its noobish..lol

Well done Rush and TWI for some interesting debate..
 
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#63
Sounds like valid concerns were raised. In particular, since games do not allow proprioception, the idea of randomization or unlearnable aim points *is* a valid concern for competitive players.

Unfortunately, it appears the even more unfortunate response of this community in this thread will continue the trend seen here of a holier-than-thou, insulting, belittling and dismissive attitude toward those that do not follow 'the gospel', disagree with a point or points, or express valid criticism.

I wonder how many of the know-it-alls here re: competitive gaming have ever actually done so, much less for money.

Keep it up, I'm sure you can alienate the competitive scene, as you've already done for many casual gamers (I know several that have lost interest because of the blatantly apparent community 'attitude').


Quite sad, really, to see all the pissing on potential sales...ignore those that live in the worlds you want to expand into at your own peril.

You really can end up with an exclusive game - one only you will be playing.

Rob
 
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#64
HeyCarnut said:
Sounds like valid concerns were raised. In particular, since games do not allow proprioception, the idea of randomization or unlearnable aim points *is* a valid concern for competitive players.

Unfortunately, it appears the even more unfortunate response of this community in this thread will continue the trend seen here of a holier-than-thou, insulting, belittling and dismissive attitude toward those that do not follow 'the gospel', disagree with a point or points, or express valid criticism.

I wonder how many of the know-it-alls here re: competitive gaming have ever actually done so, much less for money.

Keep it up, I'm sure you can alienate the competitive scene, as you've already done for many casual gamers (I know several that have lost interest because of the blatantly apparent community 'attitude').


Quite sad, really, to see all the pissing on potential sales...ignore those that live in the worlds you want to expand into at you own peril.

You really can end up withan exclusive game - one only you will be playing.

Rob
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I never played competitively, but I think that the games are evolving, and that competitive gamers should adapt. It's just premature to say that you won't buy the game just because it doesn't have crosshairs (even though it's one of the really few games that has more competitive-friendly features than any other game had in 10 years).
 
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#65
HeyCarnut said:
Sounds like valid concerns were raised. In particular, since games do not allow proprioception, the idea of randomization or unlearnable aim points *is* a valid concern for competitive players.
Click to expand...
Unlearnable aim points? I thought it was made pretty clear that with practice and skill people will be, as they are in the original game, able to predict where their gun is pointing.
HeyCarnut said:
Unfortunately, it appears the even more unfortunate response of this community in this thread will continue the trend seen here of a holier-than-thou, insulting, belittling and dismissive attitude toward those that do not follow 'the gospel', disagree with a point or points, or express valid criticism.

I wonder how many of the know-it-alls here re: competitive gaming have ever actually done so, much less for money.

Keep it up, I'm sure you can alienate the competitive scene, as you've already done for many casual gamers (I know several that have lost interest because of the blatantly apparent community 'attitude').


Quite sad, really, to see all the pissing on potential sales...ignore those that live in the worlds you want to expand into at you own peril.

You really can end up withan exclusive game - one only you will be playing.

Rob
Click to expand...
Wow... what prompted this then?

I'm very new to the community and I've never felt any of that "holier-than-thou, insulting, belittling and dismissive attitude" that you are claiming this community has as a whole.

Could it be that some people are just a bit too sensitive when their opinions and ideas don't receive the positive reaction they had hoped for?

And I find it hard to believe, especially after this interview, that the competitive community will be alienated. It's pretty clear that TWI knows what the comp community wants and is more than willing to take their thoughts and opinions into consideration.
 
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#66
Let's not get into that debate.

Let's just say: Show TWI the love they deserve, by respecting both the competitive community as well as the realism community. No communtiy is going to be neglected by TWI, so there is no reason for any conflicts of any kind at all. The better we get along, the happier TWI gets =).
(Personally I love both competitive gaming and realistic fps games ^^)
 
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#67
HeyCarnut said:
Text
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You have as much right to dislike certain attitudes here, as people here have to dislike certain attitudes from somebody else. It works both ways really.

I found the podcast very interesting and informative, and the general behavior was good, but as some people have said here before, I too noticed some douchiness, and we don't have to accept, approve or ignore such behaviors out of fear of scaring someone off.

That is what most people condemn here, and you are trying to make it look like they are against the competitive scene as a whole.
 
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#69
Fedorov said:
You have as much right to dislike certain attitudes here, as people here have to dislike certain attitudes from somebody else. It works both ways really.

I found the podcast very interesting and informative, and the general behavior was good, but as some people have said here before, I too noticed some douchiness, and we don't have to accept, approve or ignore such behaviors out of fear of scaring someone off.

That is what most people condemn here, and you are trying to make it look like they are against the competitive scene as a whole.
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I agree. I hope that the competive community does take up and enjoy Heroes of Stalingrad.

But at the same time for things such as no crosshairs scaring off or bothering supposed elite gamers is a bit ridiculous. It may be a different from what they're used too, sure, but everyone will be in the same situation.

I guess what I am saying is that you/they can still play competitively, but it doesn't have to be in that same way they are used to.
 
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#70
=GG= Mr Moe said:
I agree. I hope that the competive community does take up and enjoy Heroes of Stalingrad.

But at the same time for things such as no crosshairs scaring off or bothering supposed elite gamers is a bit ridiculous. It may be a different from what they're used too, sure, but everyone will be in the same situation.

I guess what I am saying is that you/they can still play competitively, but it doesn't have to be in that same stale way (my opinion) they are used to.
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+1 Exactly.
As a former cod `n competitive guy myself i couldn't agree more.
 
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#71
There was only that one little scene at the begining with that one young guy doing a shirley temple and then leaving.....after that i only remember a group listening and putting question's , arnswered openly and given fair time too air the structure and thoughts behind building the new game with an existing comunity and the view of coming RO players in mind....did i miss something ;)
 
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#72
=GG= Mr Moe said:
But at the same time for things such as no crosshairs scaring off or bothering supposed elite gamers is a bit ridiculous. It may be a different from what they're used too, sure, but everyone will be in the same situation.
Click to expand...
The thing competitive gamers (and quite frankly many pub players as well) dislike is randomness. People often tend to imagine that if there's no crosshair, than shooting from the hip will result in a random dice roll deciding if you hit your target or not.

But that's not the case with RO2, since a skilled player can learn to be really accurate when shooting from the hip and I think that point was echoed several times by Ramm in the interview.
 
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#73
ahh... have listen to the cast and really enjoyed the hole "no crosshairs" and "free-aim hipping skills" discussion. i know how the "complaining guys" felt like about the whole suppression. i am not a big fan of it ether but as long as i haven experienced it i wouldn't judge it. *hint 1

i am really pleased about the guy who got the grasp of freeaim and what it adds to an ego-shooter. it adds a whole new skill-set you need to master, which got me hooked with RO. since than i always thought: "man this or that shooter would be so much more fun with freeaim.", because there is nothing more satisfying than to shoot an aiming guy from 50 yards away with a bolt action-rifle from the hip. and he starts spamming the chat with stuff like :"zomg, cheat....thats impossible... nobody can hip that accurate".

and the last thing l like was the suggestion of this guy to play a clanwar during the beta. RO clanners against his BF clanners. *hint 2

Spoiler!
 
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#75
HeyCarnut said:
Sounds like valid concerns were raised. In particular, since games do not allow proprioception, the idea of randomization or unlearnable aim points *is* a valid concern for competitive players.
Click to expand...

Personally my opinion is that when compared to other military shooters RO allows for more of an ability to learn where to hit by using your proprioceptive feedback. Games with cross hairs generally have a spray radius which in pretty much all games is completely randomized. In Ro there is no spray and this weights heavily against the effect of randomization. Especially since the postion of your gun is just a 0th order system (direct input output connection in position) and the free aim could be seen as a first order differentiating disturbance (some velocity based stuff) based on your input, and if we're to believe mc ruer then we can learn to control 1st order systems.

By knowing your current position of your gun, and a possible target combined with your arms proprioception actually allows you to put a highly accurate snapshot. Without actually relying on your slow 200ms vision to put the gun on target.

Creating the correct internal model of the weapons behavior might take some time, but its a pure gain situation with free aim as a 1st order non random disturbance. This is quite easy to learn. You wont perform as good as the situation without the free aim, but you can get better than the scenario of having cone of fire with a randomized pattern.

So in case of hip shooting where in cod you have a random radius of fire i think its an improvement and makes people able to pull off more accurate shots after some practise.

In case of iron sighted shooting I personally hope that there you will be able to disable the free aim like arma. As then the key is really on accuracy, and free aim would then require you to delay your action.

Anyway gonna listen to the cast now :D
 
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#77
HeyCarnut said:
Sounds like valid concerns were raised. In particular, since games do not allow proprioception, the idea of randomization or unlearnable aim points *is* a valid concern for competitive players.

Unfortunately, it appears the even more unfortunate response of this community in this thread will continue the trend seen here of a holier-than-thou, insulting, belittling and dismissive attitude toward those that do not follow 'the gospel', disagree with a point or points, or express valid criticism.

I wonder how many of the know-it-alls here re: competitive gaming have ever actually done so, much less for money.

Keep it up, I'm sure you can alienate the competitive scene, as you've already done for many casual gamers (I know several that have lost interest because of the blatantly apparent community 'attitude').


Quite sad, really, to see all the pissing on potential sales...ignore those that live in the worlds you want to expand into at you own peril.

You really can end up withan exclusive game - one only you will be playing.

Rob
Click to expand...

I genuinely think that if everyone I wanted to be there could have made it, we'd have had a lot more questions getting intot he nitty gritty of demo recording, gameplay mechanics, etc etc.

I understand some people may feel disappointed with the disagreements that some people had, but I think it's about time we stepped back a little bit and looked at them for what they are... it was simply non-RO players disagreeing with certain features in the game, most of which can be dealt with in the server settings anyway. Really, no big deal.

Rob, I appreciate the sentiments so thank you for that, but I think a lot of our guys are looking forward to the implied challenge anyway... we may have crosshairs in our game, but I don't believe for one second that 90% of our guys who want to play RO2 will be unable to adapt... Infact, we'll adapt just fine, trust me :p

Just as a general response to some posts... teamwork in 5v5 and 8v8 in Infantry and Conquest underpinned competitive play in Battlefield for 5 years. The level of communication and complexity of tactics is a concept that is not alien to us and I can definitely see some very strong teams picking up the game on release, especially with the out of the box competitive functionality that we badly need to kickstart a competitive scene.

We just wish there was a Conquest gamemode!
 
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#80
I want to take a moment to weigh in with my thoughts on the discussion yesterday. First off i want to thank NKM and all the other guys for putting the chat session together. I really appreciate them taking the time out of their Saturday evening to make that happen, and get all the people together for the chat.

First off I'd like to say that I thought the chat was great, and it was really interesting to get some direct discussion and feedback with competitive gamers. There are two things that the hardcore RO guys need to keep in mind. One this chat wasn't about revealing new information about the game. Secondly, it wasn't even geared toward RO fans. The whole purpose of this chat was to help familiarize the non-RO competitive community with the game and its competitive features, and to give them a chance to provide feedback to TWI on what they want to see in the game. And that is what we did.

I really appreciate the feedback I got from the guys. As some people have stated, if it was just a room full of people kissing our rears then it wouldn't really be productive, and TWI wouldn't learn anything from the conversation. With that said I will have to disagree with NKM slightly and say that there was one guy in the chat who was really rude and disrespectful. It was very clear he decided that he had written off the game, and just wanted to troll the TWI devs. We aren't looking for people to agree with everything we do. But when we take a couple of hours out of our development time to have a personal chat with people, we'd at least like people to respectfully disagree :)

On the flip side I'd just like to ask the RO guys to take it easy on the non-RO guys. Growing the community will be a great thing for all of us - we'll make more money to make even better games, and you'll have a lot more people to play RO with. Please don't push them away by acting elitist - even if we all know RO players are the best ;)
 
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