You do have to lead to compensate for ping in Ost, and the greater your ping, the more you must lead.
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Will HoS present the netcode disadvantages of UE3?
- Thread starter VodkaGR
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You do have to lead to compensate for ping in Ost, and the greater your ping, the more you must lead.
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What I hate about RO is that in really close combat even with 60-80 ping (you don't really experience ping smaller than this ) you can't just aim directly at the enemy. And that's not realistic at all. And at the longer distance I would like to know that when I miss, it's my fault, and not that my ping jumped from 50 to 100. Ping is also the main cause for the whole careless frontally charging against people with bolt action rifles, because at close quarters you can actually dodge their bullets.
With anti lag system compensating up to 120 ping, there would be no problem with getting "pulled back" by the game, cause in 1/10 of a second you can only move several centimeters, and since there's bullet penetration, hiding behind a 10cm thick stone wall doesn't make you safe anyways.
Of course since the devs are against lag compensation, there will be none. I just don't agree with their arguments.
With anti lag system compensating up to 120 ping, there would be no problem with getting "pulled back" by the game, cause in 1/10 of a second you can only move several centimeters, and since there's bullet penetration, hiding behind a 10cm thick stone wall doesn't make you safe anyways.
Of course since the devs are against lag compensation, there will be none. I just don't agree with their arguments.
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RE: long distance shooting and ping
If I understand the system correctly and the way I play as a bolt action rifleman (which seems to work well...for me), in RO1, when I shoot at a player <50m away and running perpendicular to my shot, if I miss I can judge where my lead should be by the location of where the bullet hits. I can adjust the rest of my shots accordingly based the lead required for my particular ping. If the difference of the ping of most people is less than 100, with the adjustment I make for my ping (and of course as in any server, the distance to target and speed of target adjustment one must always make) I'll be pretty damn accurate.
The point being....what I saw on my screen as to where my shot hit in relation to where the target was, is exactly what is 'happened' on the server .
In close quarters combat, with <200 ping, I have to lead the target. That is the hard part. It feels unnatural to do that, but once you get it through your head that you have to lead more than normal its cake.
@Krator, Even irl, you have to take into account human and computer response time, too. Your mind says pull the trigger NAO but it takes time for your finger to react (even though your brain thinks you've shot already), then the signal goes from the mouse to comp. Miniscule, I know. But even shooting at a quickly moving target up close, you'll not hit them on their person exactly where you aim. It all adds up.
RE: the ballistics of RO1
I've always wondered if the ballistics calculations take into account the movement of the weapon? The best analogy I can think of is wing shooting (duck hunting, dove hunting). In wing shooting, one generally follows the target, pulls through the target, and keeps the motion of the shotgun moving as they pull the trigger. (I realize I'm talking multiple shot pellets and pattern vs a single bullet, blah and blah). Just wondering if the ballistics calculations begin with the assumption that the weapon is not moving.
If I understand the system correctly and the way I play as a bolt action rifleman (which seems to work well...for me), in RO1, when I shoot at a player <50m away and running perpendicular to my shot, if I miss I can judge where my lead should be by the location of where the bullet hits. I can adjust the rest of my shots accordingly based the lead required for my particular ping. If the difference of the ping of most people is less than 100, with the adjustment I make for my ping (and of course as in any server, the distance to target and speed of target adjustment one must always make) I'll be pretty damn accurate.
The point being....what I saw on my screen as to where my shot hit in relation to where the target was, is exactly what is 'happened' on the server .
In close quarters combat, with <200 ping, I have to lead the target. That is the hard part. It feels unnatural to do that, but once you get it through your head that you have to lead more than normal its cake.
@Krator, Even irl, you have to take into account human and computer response time, too. Your mind says pull the trigger NAO but it takes time for your finger to react (even though your brain thinks you've shot already), then the signal goes from the mouse to comp. Miniscule, I know. But even shooting at a quickly moving target up close, you'll not hit them on their person exactly where you aim. It all adds up.
RE: the ballistics of RO1
I've always wondered if the ballistics calculations take into account the movement of the weapon? The best analogy I can think of is wing shooting (duck hunting, dove hunting). In wing shooting, one generally follows the target, pulls through the target, and keeps the motion of the shotgun moving as they pull the trigger. (I realize I'm talking multiple shot pellets and pattern vs a single bullet, blah and blah). Just wondering if the ballistics calculations begin with the assumption that the weapon is not moving.
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When I click or pull the trigger, there's a certain response time. However, I'm talking about this: there's a dude in my crosshairs, distance 5 meters. I pull the trigger. And then there's 1/150s bullet flight time so basically there's no way at this point for anyone to dodge this shot. It should hit 100/100, because in 1/150 of a second you can only move maybe 1-2 cm sideways, and 5cm at best, when you're sprinting perpendicular to my line of fire. And that's not the case cause I'm talking about someone frontally charging you.
With 80 ping you have 1/150s +8/100s = 0,087s compared to 0,007s in reality. Quite a difference. During those 0,087s your target can move 70cm sprinting perpendicular to your line of sight. Compare that to 5cm. So in RO even with a super reflexes and 100/100 accuracy, you'll miss straifing or moving target at 5m distance just because he can stop/change direction before your bullet gets him. It's unrealistic, it's annoying and all the war-like experience goes straight to hell.
And when your ping goes up and down between 50 and 100 (happens to me all the time) you just keep missing your target with kar98. With no ping (or with anti ping system), you just learn to take proper predicition and youl hit your target. Too bad in RO each time you start the game, you have to learn making proper predictions. I feel like a soldier, who get's different rifle/ammo each time he goes into battle.
With 80 ping you have 1/150s +8/100s = 0,087s compared to 0,007s in reality. Quite a difference. During those 0,087s your target can move 70cm sprinting perpendicular to your line of sight. Compare that to 5cm. So in RO even with a super reflexes and 100/100 accuracy, you'll miss straifing or moving target at 5m distance just because he can stop/change direction before your bullet gets him. It's unrealistic, it's annoying and all the war-like experience goes straight to hell.
And when your ping goes up and down between 50 and 100 (happens to me all the time) you just keep missing your target with kar98. With no ping (or with anti ping system), you just learn to take proper predicition and youl hit your target. Too bad in RO each time you start the game, you have to learn making proper predictions. I feel like a soldier, who get's different rifle/ammo each time he goes into battle.
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![[TW]Ramm-Jaeger](/data/avatars/s/0/2.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
Krator,
The experience you are describing sounds like either a problem with your network or hardware, or a problem with the network or hardware of the server you are playing on. Because RO/Unreal 2.5 certainly doesn't have constant random increases/decreases in ping like that.
You did highlight the issue with "lag compensation" however. If a sprinting player can move .7 meter in 80ms, .7 meter is plenty of distance to get around a corner and behind cover. This is exactly the situation you run into with lag compensation. On your screen you are already behind the wall and might not even be able to see the enemy, on his screen he ran around a corner and shot you right before you got into cover.
Nor have I EVER experienced the issues you are talking about with needed to lead nearby players in over 7 years of playing RO online and on local area networks. With the reasonable ping the experience is the same.
The experience you are describing sounds like either a problem with your network or hardware, or a problem with the network or hardware of the server you are playing on. Because RO/Unreal 2.5 certainly doesn't have constant random increases/decreases in ping like that.
You did highlight the issue with "lag compensation" however. If a sprinting player can move .7 meter in 80ms, .7 meter is plenty of distance to get around a corner and behind cover. This is exactly the situation you run into with lag compensation. On your screen you are already behind the wall and might not even be able to see the enemy, on his screen he ran around a corner and shot you right before you got into cover.
Nor have I EVER experienced the issues you are talking about with needed to lead nearby players in over 7 years of playing RO online and on local area networks. With the reasonable ping the experience is the same.
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For those of you with issues like these don't forget to press F6 in-game to find out what's going on with the networking - you'll be able to see any lost packets and how much your ping is fluctuating.
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I don't think anyone is denying that occasions like that can and will happen. But at least the game is more playable in all scenarios including close combat for the high pinged players.
Sure it should never become the default setting and especially not a forced setting for servers. But for locally hosted co-op games, students with bad connections and people in remote areas with no community it could offer an outcome as the alternative is playing with a bad ping ripping away all chance for a fair game.
Even you complained at times on a public server that you couldn't win a bayo fight with me because of your ping Ramm
.I can understand if you do not wish to implement it due to it probably taking a lot of time and thus money. But there are some clear groups that could benefit from something like that.
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I'm 100% sure it's not the problem with my network. It's just common that on some servers ping is somehow connected with the number of players/size of map. So sometimes it's 50, sometimes 100. It takes different lead to shoot. So I have to relearn how to aim 2-3 times a day, since I also play on different servers. Pretty annoying.
On the other hand getting killed 70cm behind cover is no problem for me. What's the difference? I got hit. That's all that matters. In such case I would have lost 100ms of actual gameplay. That's not something to worry about.
Especially since even in reality in extreme stress situations people sometimes realise they are injured (even deadly injured) with a slight delay.
Ramm, would you really get annoyed if something like this occured (you die 100ms after you are behind cover)? 100-150ms is less than average reaction time. Your avatar would be dead before you would actually thought about the fact that you're safe behind cover
Of course your concern is in my opinion 100% valid when speaking about >150 ping compensation. F.e. dying after 0,4s would really suck, cause it would be some significant time.
Do you really find "bullet dodging" and missing short range "sure shots" with kar98k/mosin less annoying? Because I feel like I'm shooting some goddamn crossbow, not a deadly rifle. I think realistic weapon/bullet behaviour is much more important than getting shot miliseconds after getting behind cover from time to time.
("average bullet speed" at 5m is around 60m/s. Crossbow actually does better. )
I really love RO and bolt action rifles. I'm not a "bad shooter" (believe me or not). I really like long range shooting when my ping is around 70. But when it goes up to 100 I keep missing. And when on some other map it's at 60, I have to re-learn once more. It's of course damn rewarding when I hit. And damn annoying when someone does Matrix bullet dodge using strafing and running left and right...
Anti-ping system or not, I'm going to love this game. But any noticeable ping takes away a good part of realistic gun behaviour. And unfortunately I have a soul of a gun nut, not a gamer :IS2: (yaaay, used the sacred IS2 for the first time)
On the other hand getting killed 70cm behind cover is no problem for me. What's the difference? I got hit. That's all that matters. In such case I would have lost 100ms of actual gameplay. That's not something to worry about.
Especially since even in reality in extreme stress situations people sometimes realise they are injured (even deadly injured) with a slight delay.
Ramm, would you really get annoyed if something like this occured (you die 100ms after you are behind cover)? 100-150ms is less than average reaction time. Your avatar would be dead before you would actually thought about the fact that you're safe behind cover
Of course your concern is in my opinion 100% valid when speaking about >150 ping compensation. F.e. dying after 0,4s would really suck, cause it would be some significant time.
Do you really find "bullet dodging" and missing short range "sure shots" with kar98k/mosin less annoying? Because I feel like I'm shooting some goddamn crossbow, not a deadly rifle. I think realistic weapon/bullet behaviour is much more important than getting shot miliseconds after getting behind cover from time to time.
("average bullet speed" at 5m is around 60m/s. Crossbow actually does better. )
I really love RO and bolt action rifles. I'm not a "bad shooter" (believe me or not). I really like long range shooting when my ping is around 70. But when it goes up to 100 I keep missing. And when on some other map it's at 60, I have to re-learn once more. It's of course damn rewarding when I hit. And damn annoying when someone does Matrix bullet dodge using strafing and running left and right...
Anti-ping system or not, I'm going to love this game. But any noticeable ping takes away a good part of realistic gun behaviour. And unfortunately I have a soul of a gun nut, not a gamer :IS2: (yaaay, used the sacred IS2 for the first time)
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Well Krator I can tell you that I've been in a number of "close quarters" situations where my shots went exactly where I wanted them to. Rifles and SMGs alike. It may not be your personal network, but it could be that the connection to whatever server you're having problems in happens to be crud.
Lag compensation is a serious no-no in pretty much any game that you want to be truly competitive in, and nobody likes dieing because the other guy's bullets happened to count more than yours or your movements. Just think about all those times in Call of Duty where you were killed by someone you just shot at, only to see that you didn't even fire on the kill cam.
It may be fine for some people, but it would be incredibly wonky in RO and would tick quite a few of us off if such a system were implemented.
Lag compensation is a serious no-no in pretty much any game that you want to be truly competitive in, and nobody likes dieing because the other guy's bullets happened to count more than yours or your movements. Just think about all those times in Call of Duty where you were killed by someone you just shot at, only to see that you didn't even fire on the kill cam.
It may be fine for some people, but it would be incredibly wonky in RO and would tick quite a few of us off if such a system were implemented.
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Source games use ping compensation, and you see the results... just constant random and unpredictable behavior of everything.
Sorry, not my cup of tea.
:IS2::IS2::IS2:
Sorry, not my cup of tea.
:IS2::IS2::IS2:
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If your ping is going between 50 and 100 on an official infantry or combined arms map depending on the number of players/size of the map then it is definitely a problem with the server. Pings climb for players when the server's CPU is overloaded. Since the server can't keep up with network updates because its processing too much information for too many players or too much stuff. Lots of weird and unpredictable things happen too when a server's CPU gets overloaded. So in this situation, it is an irresponsible server admin pushing the player slots higher than his machine can handle that is the culprit.
Ramm, would you really get annoyed if something like this occured (you die 100ms after you are behind cover)? 100-150ms is less than average reaction time. Your avatar would be dead before you would actually thought about the fact that you're safe behind cover
Yes I do get really annoyed and generally do NOT play games with systems like this. I think your missing one major point about anti-lag systems. The problem isn't YOUR ping, its the OTHER GUY'S ping. I could be running around merrily with my 40-50ms ping in those games, and fighting some other guy with a 200-250ms ping. I run behind a wall but the other guy gets an extra 200-250 MS to shoot at/kill me. Since he is engaging where I WAS 1/4 of a second ago (sort of having a gunfight with the "me" from the past), I can't react to it like I should and he kills the "me" from the past while on my end I appear to be perfectly safe until I fall over dead behind the wall.
Once again, I've never had the experience you are talking about having in RO unless there was a major lag/packetloss issue occurring due to network or server CPU issues. In RO I aim at guys that are close to me and I kill them. I'm even pretty good at hip shooting nearby players with my bolt action rifle, let alone using iron sights
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I'm really glad you have that opinion Ramm, because lag compensation downright sucks. It sounds nice in theory, but never works. It's annoying when I shoot a guy but the server calculates it as a miss because it teleports the target forward a meter or two. Or I get shot from around a corner. You get this all the time in Source games.
I never had any problems with RO's netcode, and because it doesn't have lag compensation the game can have such an accurate ballistics and damage system.
I never had any problems with RO's netcode, and because it doesn't have lag compensation the game can have such an accurate ballistics and damage system.
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It happens to me, when pressing F6 I see that I have 0 packet loss, and even when playing around 80 ms I have to lead my shots, and that happens in every server I play but one that I found today with 55 ms pingIf your ping is going between 50 and 100 on an official infantry or combined arms map depending on the number of players/size of the map then it is definitely a problem with the server. Pings climb for players when the server's CPU is overloaded. Since the server can't keep up with network updates because its processing too much information for too many players or too much stuff. Lots of weird and unpredictable things happen too when a server's CPU gets overloaded. So in this situation, it is an irresponsible server admin pushing the player slots higher than his machine can handle that is the culprit.
Yes I do get really annoyed and generally do NOT play games with systems like this. I think your missing one major point about anti-lag systems. The problem isn't YOUR ping, its the OTHER GUY'S ping. I could be running around merrily with my 40-50ms ping in those games, and fighting some other guy with a 200-250ms ping. I run behind a wall but the other guy gets an extra 200-250 MS to shoot at/kill me. Since he is engaging where I WAS 1/4 of a second ago (sort of having a gunfight with the "me" from the past), I can't react to it like I should and he kills the "me" from the past while on my end I appear to be perfectly safe until I fall over dead behind the wall.
Once again, I've never had the experience you are talking about having in RO unless there was a major lag/packetloss issue occurring due to network or server CPU issues. In RO I aim at guys that are close to me and I kill them. I'm even pretty good at hip shooting nearby players with my bolt action rifle, let alone using iron sights
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+1
Since games started to implement lag increase they all have that same floaty incaccuracy about them.
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why are we even discussing about "lag compensation" when it makes lag even more noticeable?
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Lag compensation works if there is a capped to how much lag is compensated. IE. 75 ping lag compensation would only buffer 75 milliseconds so if you play within that range you will never have to change how you aim, beyond that point you will have to lead because of poor connection. An .15 of a second death around a corning is not as much of a big deal as having to lead in close quarters like you have to in RO.
Basically this system would a limited lag compensation so if you are playing at the proper latency (sub 75 ping) all shots will handle and hit properly. Beyond range that it's handled the same way as RO current system but with the still 75 millisecond buffer (ex. if you had 150 ping it would be like playing with 75 ping, anything lowering than 75 ping is like playing with 0 ping).
The advantages of this system is it eliminates the stupid high pingers from killing you when running around corners in a lag compensation game, while still offering the benefit of not needing to lead in close quarters.
Basically this system would a limited lag compensation so if you are playing at the proper latency (sub 75 ping) all shots will handle and hit properly. Beyond range that it's handled the same way as RO current system but with the still 75 millisecond buffer (ex. if you had 150 ping it would be like playing with 75 ping, anything lowering than 75 ping is like playing with 0 ping).
The advantages of this system is it eliminates the stupid high pingers from killing you when running around corners in a lag compensation game, while still offering the benefit of not needing to lead in close quarters.
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no! no! no!
don't tell me the bullet calculation will be the same is ro-ost, that was the only major flaw in the game!
having to lead with a bullet by 1/4 of a second (ping + travel time of bullet) sucks so much, please make it client based or use ping compensation!
If you dont believe me, i just found this vid, it is EXACTLY like my problem!
YouTube - Ping, it can have its advantages...
this happens ALWAYS
don't tell me the bullet calculation will be the same is ro-ost, that was the only major flaw in the game!
having to lead with a bullet by 1/4 of a second (ping + travel time of bullet) sucks so much, please make it client based or use ping compensation!
If you dont believe me, i just found this vid, it is EXACTLY like my problem!
YouTube - Ping, it can have its advantages...
this happens ALWAYS
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no! no! no!
don't tell me the bullet calculation will be the same is ro-ost, that was the only major flaw in the game!
having to lead with a bullet by 1/4 of a second (ping + travel time of bullet) sucks so much, please make it client based or use ping compensation!
If you dont believe me, i just found this vid, it is EXACTLY like my problem!
this happens ALWAYS
oh goodness no BFBC2 has differing server/client side hit detection, so you will see the hit and it never even registers.
Also I dont recall having that video ever happen to me, I would be interested to see what kinda ping that player is playing with. ( as stated earlier ROOST Ping correction starts to break down over ~200 ish ping )
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Loads of games have horrible net code and hit detection but that got nothing to do with having lag compensation or not. Its just that with lag compensation you can be sloppier with those things as it compensates the shortcomings somewhat.
Most console based games use lag compensation as the servers are hosted by the peers themselves and people usually have horrible home connections. Without lag compensation a lot of console games would become unplayable.
Again Lag compensation should never be used as a default. But in locally hosted co-op games, students using bad uni internet and people in remote areas it allows them to play and enjoy the game on a broader range of servers. And possibly play with friends and family at another end of the world.
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