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The Katyn Massacre - Who really did it?

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  • The Katyn Massacre - Who really did it?

    There is a lot of evidence disputing whether the Katyn Massacre was a Soviet or German war crime. I've only found one article from a Socialist point of view claiming that the Germans did it, which is nothing compared to the amount of articles saying otherwise.

    What I really want to know is what you guys think?
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2GlNelD.png[/IMG]

  • #2
    The soviets did it.
    Modern Warfare 3 - because blowing up families is much more important than gameplay!
    http://www.greatergoodgames.org

    Comment


    • #3
      The Soviets acknowledged the fact that they were to blame, somewhat late, but still official.
      [IMG]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Korgoth15/305Infanterie/GHomuth01.png[/IMG]

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      • #4
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
        apparently performed by the "People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD)"

        Comment


        • #5
          It took the 2010 April the 10th plane crash for them to stop playing the bull****ting game. I fear to think what it'll take for the mendacious elements of Russian administration to admit their part of the blame for the Smolensk crash.

          Anyways, Russian Duma says it's true.
          [right]Nie st

          Comment


          • #6
            Uhh Gorbachev admitted it in 1990.

            Anyway, here's a translation of the memo Beria sent to Stalin regarding the situation with Polish POWs and political prisoners. Rounded parentheses are Beria's, square brackets are my notes.

            "People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs [NKVD]
            March 1940
            No. 794 B

            "To the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks),
            To Comrade Stalin

            "In the prison camps of the NKVD of the USSR and in the reserve prisons of Ukrainian and Belorussian oblasts [small administrative district] are currently contained a large quantity of former officers of the Polish Army, former employees of the Polish police and intelligence agencies, members of the Polish nationalist counterrevolutionary party, uncovered participants of counterrevolutionary rebel organizations, defectors and others. All of them are sworn enemies of the Soviet state and full of hatred for the Soviet system.

            "POW officers and policemen, while in the camps, are attempting to continue counter-rev. work and lead anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is just waiting to be released in order to actively join the opposition to the Soviet state.

            "Organs of the NKVD in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus revealed a number of rebel counter-rev. organizations wherein an active leadership role in being played by former officers of the Polish Army, former policemen, and gendarmes.

            "Among the deserters arrested for illegal border crossings, there was found a significant number of persons whom are members of counter-rev. spy and insurgent organizations.

            "In the POW camps there is a total of (not counting enlisted soldiers and non-commissioned officers) 14,736 former officers, government officials, policemen, gendarmes, prison guards, osadniks [Polish veterans settled in the Kresy; a sort of colonist] and intelligence agents - by nationality, over 97% of which are Poles.

            "Of them, there are:
            • Generals, colonels, and lieutenant-colonels - 295
            • Majors and captains - 2,080
            • Lieutenants, sub-lieutenants and warrant-officers - 6,049
            • Officers and junior commanders of the police, border patrol, and gendarmerie - 1,030
            • rank-and-file policemen [constables in UK, officers in US], Gendarmes, prison guards, and intelligence officers - 5,138
            • Officials, landowners, clergymen and osadniks - 144
            "In the prisons of the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus are contained a total of 18,632 prisoners (of which 10,685 are Poles), including:
            • Former officers - 1,207
            • Former police intelligence officers and gendarmes - 5,141
            • Spies and diversionists [saboteurs] - 347
            • Former landowners, industrialists, and officials - 465
            • Members of various counter-rev. and insurgent organizations and other counter-rev. elements - 5,345
            • Deserters - 6,127
            "Based on the fact that they are entrenched, incorrigible enemies of the Soviet state, the NKVD of the USSR considers it necessary:
            1. To suggest the NKVD of the USSR:

              1. For the cases of those 14,700 persons in POW camps that are former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, gendarmes, osadniks, and prison guards,

              2. As well as the cases of those detainees held in prisons in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus numbering 11,000 people who are members of various counter-rev. spying and sabotaging organizations, were former landlords, industrialists, former Polish officers, officials, and deserters -

              - to try [and convict], in a special manner, these persons with the sentence of capital punishment - by gunshot. [emphasis my own]
            2. Trials be performed without summoning the arrested nor with laying charges against the accused, ordinances on the termination of the investigation and final conviction are to be as follows:
              a) For persons in POW camps - according to information provided by the Office for Prisoners of War of the NKVD of the USSR,
              b) For persons arrested - according to information from the cases submitted by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and Belorussian SSR.
            3. Trying and deliberating to be entrusted to a troika [counsel of three] consisting of Comrades [name scratched out], Merkulov, [added in in pen] Kobulov, and Bashtakov (Head of the 1st Special Department of the NKVD of the USSR).

            "Peoples Commissar of Internal Affairs
            Union of SSR
            [Beria's Signature]
            L. Beria"

            Here are high resolution scans of the document:
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p1.jpg
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p2.jpg
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p3.jpg
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p4.jpg

            Feel free to correct any errors
            Last edited by Bluehawk; 02-15-2015, 12:23 AM. Reason: Pg.3; 14,700, not 17,000. That's a big difference!

            Comment


            • #7
              Very good post Bluehawk.

              Stalin's grandson tries to sue media claiming his grandfather was a murderer ...

              Graviteam - for the true Grognard.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bluehawk View Post
                Uhh Gorbachev admitted it in 1990.

                Anyway, here's a translation of the memo Beria sent to Stalin regarding the situation with Polish POWs and political prisoners. Rounded parentheses are Beria's, square brackets are my notes.

                "People's Commission of Internal Affairs [NKVD]
                March 1940
                No. 794 B

                "To the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks),
                To Comrade Stalin

                "In the prison camps of the NKVD of the USSR and in the reserve prisons of Ukrainian and Belorussian oblasts [small administrative district] are currently contained a large quantity of former officers of the Polish Army, former employees of the Polish police and intelligence agencies, members of the Polish nationalist counterrevolutionary party, uncovered participants of counterrevolutionary rebel organizations, defectors and others. All of them are sworn enemies of the Soviet state and full of hatred for the Soviet system.

                "POW officers and policemen, while in the camps, are attempting to continue counter-rev. work and lead anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is just waiting to be released in order to actively join the opposition to the Soviet state.

                "Organs of the NKVD in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus revealed a number of rebel counter-rev. organizations wherein an active leadership role in being played by former officers of the Polish Army, former policemen, and gendarmes.

                "Among the deserters arrested for illegal border crossings, there was found a significant number of persons whom are members of counter-rev. spy and insurgent organizations.

                "In the POW camps there is a total of (not counting enlisted soldiers and non-commissioned officers) 14,736 former officers, government officials, policemen, gendarmes, prison guards, osadniks [Polish veterans settled in the Kresy; a sort of colonist] and intelligence agents - by nationality, over 97% of which are Poles.

                "Of them, there are:
                • Generals, colonels, and lieutenant-colonels - 295
                • Majors and captains - 2,080
                • Lieutenants, sub-lieutenants and warrant-officers - 6,049
                • Officers and junior commanders of the police, border patrol, and gendarmerie - 1,030
                • rank-and-file policemen [constables in UK, officers in US], Gendarmes, prison guards, and intelligence officers - 5,138
                • Officials, landowners, clergymen and osadniks - 144
                "In the prisons of the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus are contained a total of 18,632 prisoners (of which 10,685 are Poles), including:
                • Former officers - 1,207
                • Former police intelligence officers and gendarmes - 5,141
                • Spies and diversionists [saboteurs] - 347
                • Former landowners, industrialists, and officials - 465
                • Members of various counter-rev. and insurgent organizations and other counter-rev. elements - 5,345
                • Deserters - 6,127
                "Based on the fact that they are entrenched, incorrigible enemies of the Soviet state, the NKVD of the USSR considers it necessary:
                1. To suggest the NKVD of the USSR:

                  1. For the cases of those 17,000 persons in POW camps that are former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence agents, gendarmes, osadniks, and prison guards,

                  2. As well as the cases of those detainees held in prisons in the western oblasts of Ukraine and Belarus numbering 11,000 people who are members of various counter-rev. spying and sabotaging organizations, were former landlords, industrialists, former Polish officers, officials, and deserters -

                  - to try [and convict], in a special manner, these persons with the application of capital punishment - by gunshot. [emphasis my own]
                2. Trials be performed without summoning the arrested nor with laying charges against the accused, ordinances on the termination of the investigation and final conviction are to be as follows:
                  a) For persons in POW camps - according to information provided by the Office for Prisoners of War of the NKVD of the USSR,
                  b) For persons arrested - according to information from the cases submitted by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and Belorussian SSR.
                3. Trying and deliberating to be entrusted to a troika [counsel of three] consisting of Comrades [name scratched out], Merkulov, [added in in pen] Kobulov, and Bashtakov (Head of the 1st Special Department of the NKVD of the USSR).

                "Peoples Commission of Internal Affairs
                Union of SSR
                [Beria's Signature]
                L. Beria"

                Here are high resolution scans of the document:
                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p1.jpg
                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p2.jpg
                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p3.jpg
                http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...assacre_p4.jpg

                Feel free to correct any errors
                Great post.
                [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2GlNelD.png[/IMG]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks, Bluehawk
                  Modern Warfare 3 - because blowing up families is much more important than gameplay!
                  http://www.greatergoodgames.org

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bluehawk, I am fully aware that Gorbachov admitted Soviet guilt in 1990, as did Yeltsin later, but what I thought was so important in the Duma admission was that it was (to my knowledge) the first time a major organ of the Russian administration admitted it (thus, no longer a single deniable individual; I mean, look at Yeltsin's track record — I can almost hear someone say "Oh, he was a drunkard, what did he know"; Gorbachov — as far as I know — was also not the top-scorer amongst those hard-line Soviets).
                    But with Duma admission, well, that was not as easily deniable, and that's why it's the defining moment for me.

                    And as for the bull****ting game I mentioned earlier: We're not responsible for Stalin.

                    (what they're saying is that the European Tribunal of Human Rights is going to announce it's ruling on the 16th April, but the newspaper already knows that Russia is going to be declared not guilty; and so on and so on)
                    Last edited by I. Kant; 04-12-2012, 07:15 AM.
                    [right]Nie st

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ahh, I see now.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You guys lost?

                        The buttler did it (as usual)

                        In-game name: Costarring

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rrralphster View Post
                          You guys lost?

                          The buttler did it (as usual)
                          Nope. It was marmite.
                          Most Honourable, Krobar
                          sigpic
                          Yea, I'd be that guy, with an obrez and an ice cream cart.

                          Comment


                          • #14


                            This is the photo of the man who personnally killed atleast 7000 men during the katynn massacere. He used mostly walther model 2 pistols but also some PPK ones. An entire case full of personall pistols. He did this because he dint trusted the new TT-30 pistol yet, and if the bodies where found, they could put the guilt on the nazis

                            His name is vasili blokhin
                            Last edited by theta123; 04-19-2012, 05:49 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How can this even be debated? It's like trying to debate the Holocaust.

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