[nitpick]
Physics 101: You mean that the bullet looses it's speed faster than other rounds? In other words it looses it's kinetic energy which then affects it's stopping power in a negative way
It doesn't drop faster.
[/nitpick]
That's technically correct: over time, they all accelerate downwards at the same rate.
What I was getting at was that not only is 7.62x39 significantly slower at the muzzle than 5.56, but it also loses velocity at a greater rate, meaning it's vertical drop over horizontal distance covered is much greater.
Ohh jolly good, here comes Mr. Sarcastic
1) We are not comparing the 5.56x45 to the 7.62x39, we are talking about a whole new round that doesen't exist yet, hence, that whole novel you just wrote? it's swatting at figments of your imagination, and is useless to the debate.. i don't think you could have missed the point any harder if you tried.
Oh, really?
Start of Ermac's post said:
the 5.56x45 tries to be a jack of all trades, but as is common with such things, that just means there's nothing it really excels at... (Bunch of stuff about how 5.56 sucks, exaggerating it's shortcomings)
Middle of Ermac's post said:
If we look at the 7.62x39 by contrast... (bunch of stuff about how 7.62x39 rocks, downplaying it's shortcomings)
End of Ermac's post said:
Personally, i think the 7.62x39 comes clouser to what an AR needs than the 5.56x45,
Nearly his ENTIRE post was comparing the two, in only a few areas did he admit that 7.62x39 could be improved with the magic of "modern technology" but by and large it was contrasting 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. Re-read his post.
I even made the point that these so-called improvements that can be offered by "modern technology" won't do much as far as 7.62x39 goes. It won't get rid of it's inherent flaws, as numerous as they are.
2) Look up "hyperbole" sometime, maybe then you will grasp the "glorified .22lr" comment.
Ermac said:
At 250m the M855 will not fragment at all and will hit like a .22 LR at that range.
I suggest you look up "misinformation".
3) No, you do not get to compare exotic steel core AP rounds to bog standard, cheap as chips ammo as if that was a fair comparison.
Exotic? Just about
everyone who uses 5.56 uses SS109 armour-piercing as their standard. You can buy it in bulk if you're in a country that allows it; it's cheaper than most civilian 5.56 ammo.
So yes, it's a fair comparison. It's the standard and has been for several decades. Maybe you should do a few minutes of cursory research before you go around making such idiotic statements.
4) Stop beeing a self-righteous douche,
There's a reason I'm self-righteous; I'm
right. The reason I'm sarcastic (and the reason I'm sarcastic) is because I've basically seen Ermac's exact post a zillion times on a zillion different sites (never on gun forums though,
I wonder why that is), and it gets a bit tiring when your opponent is just some guy regurgitating the opinions of some
other guy he saw on TV.
nobody likes an E-thug, and all that bile you just spewed all over the floor is stinking up the place, and was utterly uncalled for.
And you're not spewing bile?
Straighten up, get on the same page as the discussion, and then maybe we'll have something to talk about..
Look in the mirror, buddy.
or do you honestly think that the 5.56 is the pinnacle of human achivement?
Good god no.
that it can in no way be improved upon? no? then what exactly is you objection to us debating how it might be improved?
That's fine, but Ermac was posting like it is absolutely worthless and 7.62x39 is superior, which is, as Soviet and Chinese military researchers had concluded when they adapted 5.45x39 and 5.8x42 respectively, a bunch of crap. I cannot abide by that kind of misinformation.
Now, if anyone would actually want to take off their stupids for a second and get serious about ballistics and coefficients and wound profiles, they're free to make a thread about it and I'll jump right in.
At 250m the M855 will not fragment at all and will hit like a .22 LR at that range.
Well... no. Not only does it have nearly 3 times the kinetic energy to throw around at that range than .22LR does at muzzle, it will keyhole, tumble (hint: .22 won't do any of that), and penetrate way more. The difference is of that between night and day.
The M855 will fragment less and less as it reaches its optimal fragmenting range.
Yes, which is still better than
never fragmenting.
When it does fragment it leaves larger wounds but as I said fragmentation is a unreliable wounding mechanism
Which must be why most modern military rifle cartridges are designed to do that, right? Maybe you know something the guys that came up with German 7.62x51 or those soviets that thought up 5.45x39 don't.
and lacks the consistency of a 7.62x39
What, you mean being consistently bad?
Funny story: one day, West German engineers realized that standard M80-style 7.62x51mm ball ammo
didn't produce very good wound profiles, and more-or-less just punched right through and didn't make very big holes. So, emulating the design of 5.56x45mm NATO's bullets, they made the cannelure deeper and the jacketing thinner, and now it fragments violently and doesn't exit it's target! Wonder why they thought that we be an advantage?
Not as unimpressive as a 5.56 failing to fragment.
Which doesn't happen most of the time.
Against steel but not concrete,windshields, or trees.
Have any sources for that? I'm genuinely curious.
Heck even a 9mm will over penetrate more then a 5.56 will in dry wall I saw a video.
Ooh, you "saw a video". It all comes together.
So what? I don't get this; penetration isn't everything. Against soft targets, it barely matters so long as it penetrates enough to make it to something vital.
Both rounds the 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 are not perfect, they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
So let me get this straight. You'd rather have a round that:
- Weighs twice as much, meaning you carry half the amount.
- Recoils harder.
- Doesn't fragment or otherwise cause large wound channels.
- Isn't very accurate, meaning even
fewer of your already-decreased amount of ammo is going to hit your target.
All for a bit of extra penetration? Hint: if you're trying to shoot at your enemy through concrete, something has gone horribly wrong with your training.
LemoN said:
Zeptorem's post is best discribed as an Epic Fail
I thought you weren't responding to me because I'm such an OMG EPIC troll?
