Tactics How do you rank the perks in hell on earth?

[outofrealman]

Pub server?

Demo/support
Berserker
Sharpshooter
then.... nothing else...

You just cant win with random 0lvs which crowd up to 2 or even 3 in your team. You just cant play at all, if you cant deal with everything. Because it happens to be the case that FIVE people cannot deal with a SINGLE scrake even you keep EVERYTHING else from them.

With a pre-made team while everyone know what they are doing?
Still,
demo/support
commando/medic/sharpshooter

Now, Berserker wont have much zeds to kill because everyone kill what they have to b4 anything get close. And AOE is always better. So...

Yeah.. FB could be AOE... but it just do a tiny bit of damage.

 

[DarkFalz]

On a separate note, I'm finding that A LOT of teams on HoE kite. (Still need more practice) I can't seem to find a team that likes camping or a successful team that camps. It either boils down to elites who think camping is too easy or camping with ppl who can't handle themselves. Kinda frustrated since all I need at the moment is HoE.

The group that I play with camps every single game and in general we're pretty successful. I also record our games all the time too. Here's my Youtube channel if you want to watch them:

http://www.youtube.com/user/crazedtofu[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/crazedtofu[/URL]

 

[nutterbutter]

Berserkers are overpowered since they are way too hard to kill, and one who has any rough idea what he is doing can easily survive on his own.

Thank you.

 

[nutterbutter]

This post is astonishing to me.

Firstly, you cannot, CANNOT, generalize and then classify the effectiveness of each class simply by the HOE difficulty.

Why not?

 

[Splatpope]

Why not?

cause its situational and stuff

In fact I think he said that with a polemical spirit.

Just by answering you, this reply became polemical too !

It's just too entertaining to confront people just for the sake of practicing one's argumentation skills hehehe

 

[nutterbutter]

cause its situational and stuff

With the situation being qualified by being in HoE. Every comparison like this is purely academic and subjective anyways.

 

[Splatpope]

purely academic and subjective anyways.

Yeah that's what he meant

 

[Morzarr]

With the situation being qualified by being in HoE. Every comparison like this is purely academic and subjective anyways.

Wrong. HoE isn't a situation, it is more of a defining atmosphere from which situations follow. HoE sets the structural integrity of the game mechanics. So many more factors key into specific situations, thus class proficiencies can't be confined and evaluated under such potentially broad circumstances.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Well HoE does change the way the game is played. Specimens move faster and have alot more health, as such a tactic that works on lower difficulties will not by default work on HoE. I suppose one could argue that in HoE you would automatically position yourself in an environment that suits your particular class, the main factor being whether or not majority of maps provide that environment for your class to excel in.

For example a Sharpshooter excels in areas where specimens can't spawn near him around corners and such, and he can see where they are coming from. In practise there aren't many maps that have open areas with a clear line of sight and few spawn points. However Berserkers just need reasonably wide open spaces that they can move around in, which is ofc alot more common in the stock maps.

Since HoE is the maximum difficulty, and accounting for the availability of optimal environments, it isn't inconcievable to begin comparing perks based on how they typically encounter specimens within the game. In the case of the Zerker, he can choose when and where to deal with any of the specimens in almost any map, whereas other perks are forced to try and overcome their weaknesses based on the suituation.

Firebugs, Medics, Sharpshooters and Demoman will find their weaknesses quite prominent since their strengths are generally less accomadated for. Berserkers, Commando's and SS's on the other hand can usually position themselves somewhere they will encounter their weaknesses less often. (Thats not saying classes are OP'd btw, just saying these are more versatile).

 

[Althamus]

Wrong. HoE isn't a situation, it is more of a defining atmosphere from which situations follow. HoE sets the structural integrity of the game mechanics. So many more factors key into specific situations, thus class proficiencies can't be confined and evaluated under such potentially broad circumstances.

+1

Berserkers are IMHO the best class on HoE, roughly speaking, since they can kill anything, and survive the best. But in my current team setup, berserkers would suck since it's based around killing things from range.

And to reply to the topic, my team currently roll with 2xcommandos (kill the smaller stuff), 2xsupport (floorclear + 2xAA12s can kill the fp before he stops raging), 1xsharpie (lever+EBR kills scrakes and helps with the smaller stuff), 1xspare (dependant on map. Often another sharpie since he can basically do everything except for fps).

We don't bring a firebug (flaming until the mobs burn out takes up too much damage, and you don't normally have the luxury of letting them burn out on HoE. Plus, visibility for a team that really needs LoS), medic (offense > defense).
We sometimes bring a berserker since if all else goes to hell, the berserker can finish the wave. We occassionally bring a demo (mostly map dependant) since a demo firing down a single corridor clears a lot of stuff out.

 

[swenor27]

We don't bring a firebug (flaming until the mobs burn out takes up too much damage, and you don't normally have the luxury of letting them burn out on HoE. Plus, visibility for a team that really needs LoS),

With 3 players try 1 fbug from round 1 to 5/6 - fbug is dirty cheap. With more teammates You can go 2 fbugs. If You funnel zeds, You will kill them fast, and save teammates' ammo. Fbug is cheap (yes, I know I had already said that) and pretty effective if You manage fuel. I did that few days ago on a few suicidal maps, when I was bored with other classes. I completely outscored my teammates - this was a fraghunt, but it did save their ammo for later waves. It works pretty well, give it a try.

 

[Althamus]

With 3 players try 1 fbug from round 1 to 5/6 - fbug is dirty cheap. With more teammates You can go 2 fbugs. If You funnel zeds, You will kill them fast, and save teammates' ammo. Fbug is cheap (yes, I know I had already said that) and pretty effective if You manage fuel. I did that few days ago on a few suicidal maps, when I was bored with other classes. I completely outscored my teammates - this was a fraghunt, but it did save their ammo for later waves. It works pretty well, give it a try.

Remain unconvinced. We played Filth's Cross yesterday HoE in a boxed corridor. I was demo (fp + crowd control), we also had a sharp (for sc), medic and 2x supports (one of which was a random). W4 the random is like "I could go firebug" and most of the team were just "no". W6 he goes firebug anyways.

Admittedly, the team wasn't the best ever. With only 5 players, a medic is a bit too much of a luxury on HoE unless they're exceptional IMHO, and by my own estimation, I'm a mediocre demo. But we started getting swarmed, our remaining support got killed by an unlucky scrake, then the firebug ran out of ammo about 3/4 through (I presume both FT and MAC10? He was 9mming things) and then of course I ran out as well and it was all over.

See my latest post on Nutterbutter's Flamethrower tactics topic for more indepth reasons why I don't like firebugs on HoE, and to a lesser extent suicidal.

 

[swenor27]

ha!

ha!

I understand You might not be conviced. If You never tried that before (or don't like/play Fbug), then it might not work the first time. When I play with my team it works, just because we tried that, and developed a plan for early waves with Fbug as crowd mower. Plan + dont shoot the same time same zeds is all I need .

I read You post. Yep that is true, but what I mean is: kill zeds on early waves at least expense. I know I is very likely that I run out of ammo around 3/4 of the wave (a commie or support takes my duty then). I still find it quite a reliable and cheap solution. Not perfect, but worthy trying and worth attention. Whether You use it or ditch it, it is entirely up to You. Anyway don't get eaten

 

[Althamus]

developed a plan for early waves with Fbug as crowd mower. Plan + dont shoot the same time same zeds is all I need .

I read You post. Yep that is true, but what I mean is: kill zeds on early waves at least expense.

Yup, I'll agree that firebugs on earlier waves work well. Especially on W1, when you're darn near unkillable.

However, later on when you have harder zeds and hosing everything down starts to get costly in ammo then I reckon other classes are better.

L6 bug for me btw

But hey, if you can make it work, more power you Bugs have the potential to deal probably more damage than any other class (if every puff of flame deals the maximum DoT damage ) so in the perfect scenario with the perfect team and player, they are probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in actino yet

 

[BenioX]

Bugs have the potential to deal probably more damage than any other class (if every puff of flame deals the maximum DoT damage ) so in the perfect scenario with the perfect team and player, they are probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in actino yet

As well solo demo with LAW and pipes with fakedplayers on HoE could win through all waves and defeat Patriarch, if every rocket deals the maximum damage and hits every possible zed with each rothet. So, in the perfect scenario with perfect Demolition and circumstances, he is probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in action yet

 

[Althamus]

As well solo demo with LAW and pipes with fakedplayers on HoE could win through all waves and defeat Patriarch, if every rocket deals the maximum damage and hits every possible zed with each rothet. So, in the perfect scenario with perfect Demolition and circumstances, he is probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in action yet

Eh, demos are normally unarguably good on HoE though. It's pretty common to see them, especially when camping in spots with one or two entrances, as they can really rack up the kills and with two launchers, can deal a lot of damage real fast (as well as take out fleshpounds with relatively little trouble from medium range, probably the only singleplayer to be able to doso on HoE).
I'd personally prefer M79/M32 for that scenario though. Less damage, but more grenades for lots of zeds, and careful use of M32 against a FP will normally do the trick.

 

[BenioX]

Eh, demos are normally unarguably good on HoE though. It's pretty common to see them, especially when camping in spots with one or two entrances, as they can really rack up the kills and with two launchers, can deal a lot of damage real fast (as well as take out fleshpounds with relatively little trouble from medium range, probably the only singleplayer to be able to doso on HoE).
I'd personally prefer M79/M32 for that scenario though. Less damage, but more grenades for lots of zeds, and careful use of M32 against a FP will normally do the trick.

You didnt get the point. What I mean is Demo is useful if his potential is used in correct circumstances, that's exactly same with firebug I'd say. You can't say that in perfect circumstances and skills and so on he'd be best - every perk is good and bad at some points, luck and skills both determinate if they get used properly.
So now, to the topic, I rank all the perks in hell on earth equal. Thank you very much.

 

[Althamus]

What I mean is Demo is useful if his potential is used in correct circumstances, that's exactly same with firebug I'd say. You can't say that in perfect circumstances and skills and so on he'd be best - every perk is good and bad at some points, luck and skills both determinate if they get used properly.
So now, to the topic, I rank all the perks in hell on earth equal. Thank you very much.

You may've missed my context Firebug is the only class I will discourage my friends from playing on HoE, and I consider it the worst class to play endgame on HoE. I was attempting to graciously agree to disagree with swenor by stating a firebug's advantage - they have the potential to deal a lot of damage. And they do. Each puff of flame can deal ~700 damage, assuming the zed will burn for the full 10 second DoT. With the flamethrower alone, they can deal 700x160x4=448K damage. 4 times as much as a crossbow dealing max (2880) damage with every shot. A demo is probably the only class that can come close to the maximum potential damage a firebug can put out due to his AoEs.

Also, I very deliberately never said the firebug would be the best (because I have stated repeatedly I think he's the worst ). Only that

so in the perfect scenario with the perfect team and player, they are probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in actino yet

In fact, I really don't get how you thought I was saying they were the best class from my post

 

[BenioX]

In fact, I really don't get how you thought I was saying they were the best class from my post

Bugs have the potential to deal probably more damage than any other class (if every puff of flame deals the maximum DoT damage ) so in the perfect scenario with the perfect team and player, they are probably very good on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in actino yet

:IS2: Nothing more to say :IS2:

 

[Althamus]

:IS2: Nothing more to say :IS2:

Medics rarely deal any damage, do you think that makes them the worst class?

Sharps shouldn't get as many kills as say commandos, does that make them worse?

Berserkers are poor at camping, but the best class kiting. Does that make them better or worse than demos, who are the complete opposite?

Also, the full DoT is a 10 SECOND DoT. It is impossible to hit 640 different zeds with the flamethrower, and have them all burn for 10 seconds each. ESPECIALLY on HoE, when zeds normally are biting you within 3-5 seconds of having first appeared.

Bugs have the potential to deal probably more damage than any other class (if every puff of flame deals the maximum DoT damage )

Which is true. I already described how the flamethrower can potentially deal 4x as much damage as a crossbow in the perfect scenario, but I don't see people using them to kill FPs because that's just dumb.

so in the perfect scenario with the perfect team and player, they are PROBALY VERY GOOD on HoE. I just haven't seen that combination in actino yet

"Probably very good" =/= best class ever. Probably very good = a good class to play.
"I just haven't seen that combination in action yet" =/= best class ever. That means that on paper they are probably very good, but I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE PLAYED WELL (on HoE).

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