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How Does the community feel about officially adding THE BRUTE?

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#81
Diablo... Killing Floor is a community/modder based game. Pretty much EVERYTHING in this game has been a mod and was later added into an official game. Each official map, that doesn't state "Tripwire" on it in the picture has been contributet by modders (BioHazard, Crash, Departed, FilthCross, Hospital Horrors, Ice Breaker, Mountain Pass, Suburbia, Waterworks.... all of these have been made by modders).


Please don't add a headshot chance from the front. That is exactly what makes the Brute unique and immune to Sharpshooters.

My idea was to make him face every damage he gets with his armored side, except for flame damage. This scares him, so he turns away.
If the dot triggered that, it would be to easy, so maybe only from initial fire damage and turning away for 1-2 seconds. But a constant stream of flames, Mac10 or Husk fire would keep him turned away.
And that only until he is crisp, then he cannot feel the pain anymore and doesn't care if he is set on fire.
 
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#82
Personally I've never got along with the concept of the Brute, HOWEVER I have realised that I need to be a little bit more open minded compared to how I used to be.

So what I liked about the Brute: -
- The unique game mechanic of blocking his head to defend himself, and the intial concept of knocking people around with his attacks.
- The idea in the story of his preceding the Fleshpound as the super soldier "Tanky" specimen, makes the evolution of the gorefast a little more interesting (according to my story anyway :)).
- Him being a tanky specimen that is weak to the Flamethrower, giving the Firebug more of a role.

The main issues I had with the Brute: -
- His protecting the head hurts primarily the Sharpshooter, who isn't a class that is rocking the OP train anymore (although the M99 raises some questions).
- He has kind of a gorilla like appearance, which doesn't really slip neatly into the specimen aesthetic, and no matter how hard I try I can't neatly explain it into the Killing Floor story (saying they were cloned from gorillas feels a little shoehorny).
- His knockback is a disruption sure, but its kind of counter logical to the way the rest of the game works. Ideally he'd want to knock players down to make it easier for specimens to close in, not knock people further away from them.
- Alot of specimens already rush their targets, I'd prefer to see a Specimen that was a bullet sponge ahead of another rusher.



If he were added, this is what I'd personally like to see on the Brute: -
- His arms down and his head being on show, allowing him to move reaosonably, he should be quite resistant across the board, including his head, and be unstunnable. Any damage done to him from any source will cause him to shield himself and start edging forward slowly, kind of like the Hunters do in Halo(so if a teammate hits the brute with a nade or assault rifle he will prevent the sharpie from taking aim at the brute).
- Rework of the brutes stance and manner to be more something like this (click the title of the video):

Notice how the Hulk is generally defensive rather than offensive.
- In my mind the Fleshpound is the super tank charge and smash specimen, the brute should be fearsome but more a reactive kind of specimen, where it absorbs punishment well while giving other specimens time to close the gap. Coordinated attacks to hit him while he is exposed will be a must (or ofc use a FT).
- His knockback should be a situational attack and a toned down version of the Patties AoE attack. If he is within range of 2 or more players he will fling his mighty arm(s) and knock them back with a low damage AoE, the idea being to stop people pooling around him to attack his exposed areas. Otherwise he will do a regular attack for a moderate amount of damage on his focused target if he reaches them.

The idea I have for him is to make him low threat on his own, but hard to kill and a danger amoungst big groups of specimens. Low/mediumlate spawns obviously.

But I digress this all assumes he is to be added, and I'm not going to vote one way or another myself.
 
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#83
I wanted to chime in on THE BRUTE tweaking. Have him spawn the same rate as Husks/sirens. Head health is very low by default. The brute is always raging. He rushes in picks a target and Falcon Punches the hell out of them! After he hits the first player , the brute has this long stun animation (because running makes him tired). Fire is the only thing that will make him slow down other than hitting.
The advantages of the recommended tweaks are
1) stills keeps the spirit of the brute intact
2) gives appropriate weaknesses to make him manageable.

This will turn him into a ball of lightning.

As a alternate idea. As above, but the attack deals only 1 damage. But contact causes a law like knock back effect. This would literally explode camp spots. As the attack only causes 1 damage, the danger would be from broken defense or getting knocked off a ledge.

Ideas or comments welcome.
 
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#84
DON'T add the Brute. Seriously. It basically forces you to take damage. It's just no fun. Two of those sissies in a crowd, and you're pretty much forced to kite them for an entire wave or take a ton of damage. The worst part is that they can attack while still blocking.

However, if TWI were to rebalance it a little (And improve how it looks), it could definitely work. We need another zed like the Scrake and Fleshpound. A big, rare one.
 
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#85
I am not a fan of the Brute idea. My main reason is that most people want it since it takes team work to bring down, but how would it alter solo play? I bring this up since I can not find people to play with a lot and end up paying solo most of the time(can not stand jumping into random pub games). The game needs to keep both team and solo play in mind. The shiver would seem to do better for a more even addition.
 
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#86
Everyone take note, Undead Jester's post is how feed back should be presented.

And I agree with all his ideas. Although I think I need to point out I think you've not seen the cosmetic updates UJ, they are worth checking out. And the Brute is easily soloable (at least on suicidal level 6 mando and sharpie)

But again, UJs ideas are golden in my opinion.
 
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#87
Teraku said:
DON'T add the Brute. Seriously. It basically forces you to take damage. It's just no fun. Two of those sissies in a crowd, and you're pretty much forced to kite them for an entire wave or take a ton of damage. The worst part is that they can attack while still blocking.

However, if TWI were to rebalance it a little (And improve how it looks), it could definitely work. We need another zed like the Scrake and Fleshpound. A big, rare one.
Click to expand...

Yes You know ! I agre with you !
 
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#89
C_Gibby said:
I just said on the other page that he should be a slow-moving non-charging damage sponge.

But yeah. That's definitely the most plausible course of action. And unlike the Scrakes/Fleshpound, he needs to be ganged up on as opposed to the former zeds who tend to be surgically removed by sharpies/suppies.
Click to expand...

Ah, sorry, missed that :eek:

But at least there seems to be an overall agreement about this: The Brute as it is, no thank you. With the rushing/charging removed, and some TWI polishing, then it would be much more viable to add yes.

Interesting to see so much love for the Shiver btw. Not surprised though, a scary, twitch-headed, teleporting trash-specimen is always welcome ;)
 
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#90
I'd just like to point out the purpose of the brute:

  • A medium (husk, siren) specimen capable of charging in and disrupting groups, all while protecting itself with its arms so that it can't be sniped from a distance, as well as to either require a powerful weapon or a little teamwork.
Considering all of the elements marked there, does anyone have any problems with any in particular? If so, why? And I'd rather have some real answers, not "it makes the game too hard", since that is easily corrected by either lowering the power, speed, or frequency. Although if you do think it is too fast, too powerful, or spawns too frequently, do say. I realise many have already answered similar questions, but I'd like those to read through the purpose of the Brute and then answer with that in mind.

Another question: With its design clearly stated, does such a thing fit in with the game?

Go. :)
 
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#91
I'm working on a new design atm. And yes...I finally gave him pants lol. I have a few questions concerning the design towards the community.

- A returning factor is the metal implants most of the zeds have. What would the community like to see. Keeping in mind its backstory.

- I personally would like to remove his teeth all together, and having a dislocated jaw hanging from his face...beaten to a pulp by the many fights he had with eg a FP or something. What does the community think of this?

- Its stance is too much like an FP, and Ill be removing those animations for good. What does the community want to see?

- What new attack form would you prefer, maybe replacing the "fist in face start flying" move

- Ill be giving the man a beerbelly...it has to be done. lol


Shoot!
 
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#94
Leon_Glock said:
immune to Sharpshooters.
Click to expand...
No what makes it unique is his charging shield attack. Being "immune" to sharpshooters is what makes it imba. Not a single monster should be immune to anything. And don't talk about the husk, he is the reason the MAC-10 is a firebug reason.

Benjamin said:
I'd just like to point out the purpose of the brute:

  • A medium (husk, siren) specimen capable of charging in and disrupting groups, all while protecting itself with its arms so that it can't be sniped from a distance, as well as to either require a powerful weapon or a little teamwork.
Click to expand...
Medium : it has the "power" of a heavy/rare specimen. For to to match the medium size/class, it would need a HUGE nerf.
Protecting himself : the idea is good, but there is not a single drawback to that, his defense is just PERFECT.
Teamwork : as stated above, KF is also played in singleplayer, specimens must be beatable by a single player.
 
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#96
SPTX said:
Being "immune" to sharpshooters is what makes it imba.
Click to expand...
I didn't meant that the Brute should be literally immune, but it should not have a weak spot from the front, so that a sharpshooters cannot headshot him like all the other zeds.
If theres a weak spot in the front, then it just gets killed by sharpies from 100m and is no threat at all.

Hemi, maybe you could get the Brute an armored arm and shoulder, like a Retiarius (in KF-style):
retiarius.jpg


That armor could have its own health and can be broken after A LOT of damage to it.
Knuckledusters would be nice as well.
 
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#97
Gartley said:
Everyone take note, Undead Jester's post is how feed back should be presented.

And I agree with all his ideas. Although I think I need to point out I think you've not seen the cosmetic updates UJ, they are worth checking out. And the Brute is easily soloable (at least on suicidal level 6 mando and sharpie)

But again, UJs ideas are golden in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Cheers bro, you are right aye, I've not seen the latest stuff on him so on the cosmetic stuff I may be talking complete BS :)
 
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#98
SPTX said:
No what makes it unique is his charging shield attack. Being "immune" to sharpshooters is what makes it imba. Not a single monster should be immune to anything. And don't talk about the husk, he is the reason the MAC-10 is a firebug reason.


[/LIST]
Medium : it has the "power" of a heavy/rare specimen. For to to match the medium size/class, it would need a HUGE nerf.
Protecting himself : the idea is good, but there is not a single drawback to that, his defense is just PERFECT.
Teamwork : as stated above, KF is also played in singleplayer, specimens must be beatable by a single player.
Click to expand...

He's not immune for the same reason the husk is not immune to the flamethrower. He is simply a specimen the sharpie can't one shot straight away from the other side of the map. Have a couple of sirens get in close, and tell me that they are not more disruptive and damaging then a couple of brutes. Sirens wreck the entire team, the Brute generally focuses on one.

And again, taking down a Brute solo is completely doable, knee cap him as most classes, sharpies can put two LAR rounds in the legs and then one in the head when he's in close and drops his guard. There have also been times when I've got him when his guard is up because he's turned for whatever reason.
 
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#99
I also think not allot of people spend that much time with him as the WPC has probably...

Maybe some just vented in this thread based off a very old version of the Brute.

Nonetheless if a Zed the WPC created doesnt feel right off the bat, then maybe we did something wrong allong the development stage.

Maybe a new version of its mechanics and certain tweaks will convince the non-believers. Im working on a new mesh as we speak, but those are purely cosmetics...and I can only say it will look very different from the old version.

Lets see what the future brings for this Zed. And do not worry too much about it beeing added officially. Let's first get it up to par with the rest of the Zeds, look and feel wise...and go from there. :)
 
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#100
Benjamin said:
I'd just like to point out the purpose of the brute:

  • A medium (husk, siren) specimen capable of charging in and disrupting groups, all while protecting itself with its arms so that it can't be sniped from a distance, as well as to either require a powerful weapon or a little teamwork.
Click to expand...
I am good with all, except the charging bit, solely because we already have the Gorefast charge, the crawler pounce, the Scrake charge and the FP charge. In my mind the brute makes it so there are too many chargers.

See here for more in depth analysis in case you missed it :): http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=1102831#post1102831

TL;DR version: I think he should be more like the Hunter from Halo just without the crazy green crap hurler. As it stands the Bloat is supposed to be the meat shield for specimens, but he is easily countered by a simple headshot. If the brute were added: -
- I think he could fill this role as long as he was pretty darn tanky, and headshot resistant like the Scrakes or FP's, and most importantly unstunnable.
- His knockback should be used to prevent people swarming around him to get to his weak spots, something that is patty AoE stylie, not a primary attack. This also has the added benefit of forcing people to deal with him since they will be forced out of their spot if they don't.
- Walks normally at first but upon taking ANY damage shields himself and starts edging forward.
- Low spawn numbers, perhaps about as frequent as a Fleshpound but starting earlier.
Naturally will need playtesting to make sure it is actually fun, not annoying but hey, who actually has fun with Sirens? (Unless you happen to have Slappy's Uncensored mod ofc) :)

These changes I feel gives the Brute a purpose and makes him different enough to consider adding.
Spawns across the board might need to be changed to something like: -
- Wave 5 1 Brute spawns (to replace the Scrake that spawns here)
- Wave 6 Brutes spawn normally, along with 1 Scrake
- Wave 7 Scrakes spawn normally, along with 1 FP
- Wave 8 FPs spawn normally, game progresses as normal.
This will ofc fix the Wave 8 lull that people complain about :)
 
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