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Logical weapons for KF

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  • Logical weapons for KF

    Arguably there are enough weapons around already, however if someone wanted to make more here are a few suggestions that I think are logical anti-specimen weapons that have not been implemented yet -

    Berserker:

    Pitchfork - cheap, long range, low damage, push specimens back
    Halberd - expensive, long range, good damage on a swing. Alt. attack stab to push specimens back
    Sledgehammer - slow, high damage, stuns.
    Flail - Needs to "charged" (spun up) for a second before a strike, the strike itself is quick. High damage, stuns.

    All of the above can't hit point-blank, need a bit of distance.

    Shapshooter:

    .22 rifle (Ruger 10/22) - cheap, a TON of ammo, scoped& very accurate, no recoil, semiauto, low damage. Possibly 30-round mags, or mag capacity increasing from 10 to 30 with level of SS.

    Enfield - nuff said. Essentially a higher-damage, faster-reload LAR (Enfields can be loaded by swapping 10-round mags, you know). A bayonet alt-fire would be awesome, too.

    .22 pistol (e.g. Ruger MK III) - an option, but inferior to 9mm in all respects except the huge amount of mags and no recoil.
    Alternatively, Kel-Tec PMR or FN 5-7 would be pretty much like the 9mm but with less recoil and 30rnd mags.

    Sawed-off bolt-action (e.g. Mosin-Nagant, or Enfield) - bolt-action pistol, essentially. No ironsights, bad accuracy, clumsy reload, but high damage. Poor man's Siren/Husk killer.

    .50 BMG single-shot pistol - a pain to reload, but does a lot of damage. Poor man's M99, or a backup for M14.

    S&W 500 Magnum - bear self-defense revolver. A logical choice for specimens. HUGE recoil, low ammo, heavy(4 blocks?), far more damage than the HC.

    Support -

    Taurus Judge or other .410 revolver - fires weak shotgun rounds. IRL it's a crappy weapon due to low damage of pellets. In-game, could possibly be used to clear crowds of chaff in a pinch.

    Sawed-off shotguns - MOAR spread, less weight, same cost, less ammo capacity for the pump. Backup point-blank weapons.

    Single-shot shotgun - has to be reloaded after every shot. Cheap.

    Large-caliber shotgun (e.g. 4-gauge, or KS-23 Russian megashotgun) - these are still around, just not that many of them. Low ammo (try to find 4ga ammunition for sale), very heavy, high damage. Sort of Support's version of the LAW.

    Demo -

    Muha or similar disposable rocket launcher - single-shot LAW with a weight of 3 blocks and low cost.

    Satchel charges - enough said.

    Firebug -

    Shmel (Bumblebee) rocket-propelled flamethrower. Essentially a LAW that also sets stuff on fire. A favorite of the Russian Army - a direct hit to a building does about as much damage as a 6-inch howitzer hit.
    I think they come in a 2-pack of disposable launchers. Heavy, moderately expensive, you only get 2 shots.

    KS bottle - a military-grade Molotov. A bottle with phosphorous mixture made to burn through tank armor, self-ignites when the bottle is broken. Would be nice if it could be made hazardous to the user in some way(they were IRL) - e.g. if you get hit while holding it, it explodes.

    Commando -

    Net launcher - doesn't do damage, but slows down a specific specimen for a time.

    Best wishes,
    Daniel

  • #2
    Why?
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    • #3
      Why not?

      Comment


      • #4
        well, you have to keep in mind nutterbutter thinks that all suggestions are for the vanilla KF and that you are asking tripwire to implement them.

        the ppl who do all the different guns for kf, modders, are the ones who will make these.

        so far some of these have been done:
        Sledgehammer - gartley made one
        sawed off shotgun - i think gartleys moss12 might count as this
        i have done some of these in the list, not the exact ones you suggest but same in the respect:
        22cal rifle - made an ar7
        22cal pistol - made a colt scamp (basically 5.7x28)
        50cal pistol - its almost done, i've been working on a 50bmg thunderer
        s&w500 revolver - made a s&w460 with scope
        enfield - added mk4 and mk4 scoped, and tons of other boltactions (see miscguns mut)

        i think thats about it for what has been made off of your list, others might have done more though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you for the info.

          I think the overall idea for mod weapons should be making them weaker or much more expensive than the stock weapons (so they don't upset the balance of the game), but still useful in some specific way so people will occasionally have a reason to buy them.

          The easiest examples are really cheap crappy weapons such as one-shot shotgun or sawed-off bolt-action, which will be bought in the very beginning, by newly spawned players, or as a backup.

          Another class are single-shot or really low ammo expensive weapons such as Shmel or 4ga shotgun, basically giving some perks a way to blow money and avoid buying an off-perk weapon to fill up the weight.

          BTW another Firebug option, probably best limited to 4 shots only (this is what US Army actually uses nowadays instead of the old-fashioned flamethrower Firebug has):
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M202_FLASH

          Best wishes,
          Daniel.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmm, lets see, alot of these weapons have been made by the community already.

            A Sledge Hammer, me
            A Colt Python, me
            The Moss12 was Hemi
            A 'molotov cocktail' is around, made by the Russian community
            A Large-caliber shotgun does IJC's KSG count as this?
            Braindead made a Hunting Rifle, mag fed bolt loaded scoped rifle, worth checking out.

            Go look around the modding sub forum, most of what you want is knocking around in there. If you want something official, well, you'll have to wait about 2years.
            Whisky's Workshop
            "As you can see here, I'm -ALL ON MY F***ING OWN! Guys where the hell are you?!"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ro_sauce View Post
              well, you have to keep in mind nutterbutter thinks that all suggestions are for the vanilla KF and that you are asking tripwire to implement them.
              Not really. My question of "Why?" is that his suggestions are simply pointless, haven't been thought through, and don't add anything to the game.

              Pitchfork: Really? "low damage and pushes specimens back" So why ever use it?
              Halbard: In the game.
              Sledgehammer and flail: are basically the axe.

              .22: low damage with a ton of ammo. Who is going to use it? It is basically unperked.
              Enfield: Like the game needs a faster and more powerful perked LAR for all perks
              .22 pistol: Again, who is going to use it?
              Sawed-off bolt action: No sights, bad accuracy, slow reload. Who is going to use it much less actually actually waste inventory space on it?
              .50 BMG pistol: slow reload so who is going to use it?
              S&W 500 Magnum: low ammo, huge recoil so who is going to use it?
              Taurus Judge: "crappy weapon" with low damage. Why pick this over the standard cheap shotgun?
              Sawed off shotgun: Already created
              Single-shot shotgun: Why would ever use it?
              Large caliber shotgun: Again, with the other shotguns in the game, who would ever use it?
              Muha: Single shot with 3 weight? Who would ever buy it?
              Satchel charge: Again?
              Shmel: So now the flamer can carry 1 weapon plus two shots of this? Who would ever use it?
              KS Bottle: Another molotov that everyone has suggested a half dozen times already.
              Net launcher: Who would ever use something that stupid in the game?


              Again "Why?" None of the weapons are practical or bring anything useful to the game. The vast majority of weapons would actually be used once just so the player could see what happens and then never purchased again because playing with effectively unperked weapons or single (or double) shot high damage weapons means a short game.

              Just about every one of these suggested weapons is a "Hey, wouldn't this be cool!" without ever considering how or if it would fit in the game.
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              • #8
                The real question is what makes these weapons unique? It sounds like most of these are "we'll take the biggest most powerful gun and make it even more big and powerful but fire slower", which is not only potentially game-breaking, but a complete lack of effort/creativity on the part of the suggestor.

                The overwhelming majority of these weapons are virtually identical to each other as you defined them. Tripwire knows what guns are; you don't need to tell them about all the different ones. Instead, how about taking the time to make a thread just for fleshing out a specific weapon or two. Explain what makes it different and the specific niche in the game it would fill that none of the other weapons do. Here's a good example: (that's your cue to click)
                Personally though, I'm in favor of fixing the weapons already in the game before adding any more. Not that TWI would listen either way.
                Also
                Originally posted by Gopblin View Post
                more expensive than the stock weapons (so they don't upset the balance of the game)
                High price is a poor substitute for good balance.
                sigpic
                Know the difference!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nutterbutter View Post
                  Not really. My question of "Why?" is that his suggestions are simply pointless, haven't been thought through, and don't add anything to the game.
                  Courteous as always.

                  As stated above, most of these are designed to be inferior to standard weapons, so as not to upset the balance of the game. However, the weak ones could still be nice as pickups (especially in the first couple rounds) and cheap enough to be bought with starting cash. The disposable launchers can be bought with extra money to fill up the weight and provide an "OH SHI..." weapon.

                  Pitchfork: Really? "low damage and pushes specimens back" So why ever use it?
                  Mostly an off-perk weapon, to avoid fighting Gorefasts with a knife, or to kill Bloats and not get splashed. Long range leads to a fun game of "poke the crawler in mid-air".

                  It's also just a very logical anti-specimen weapon.

                  Halbard: In the game.
                  I think the damage/attacks can be tweaked, but yes.

                  Sledgehammer and flail: are basically the axe.
                  In the same way katana is basically the axe. Different attack speed and damage.

                  Are they better? No. Would they make fun pickups? Yes.
                  Should a sledge or flail one-shot things that need two or more hits from other weapons? Yes.

                  .22: low damage with a ton of ammo. Who is going to use it? It is basically unperked.
                  Actually, it's a purely headshot weapon, so it's an SS gun.

                  A way to rapidly kill chaff at long range without wasting big gun ammo. If anything, it's unbalanced as it would make SS good against chaff. Sort of a scoped M14-lite.

                  Again, it's a very logical weapon. A .22 rifle is probably the most common weapon around, and makes a lot of sense to use against zombies.

                  Enfield: Like the game needs a faster and more powerful perked LAR for all perks
                  Well, it's a boltie, and the cartridge isn't that powerful, so I don't think it would break the game. Just provide something inbetween M14 and Hunting Rifle in terms of hitting power/ROF. Also, the amount of ammo can be low to balance it out (IRL a WWI infantryman would carry 50 rounds or so).

                  .22 pistol: Again, who is going to use it?
                  True. The high-cap .22 magnums or 5.7 would be popular, though.

                  Sawed-off bolt action: No sights, bad accuracy, slow reload. Who is going to use it much less actually actually waste inventory space on it?
                  1st round pickup, 2nd round backup, after that yeah not much use. Also for people that just spawned and don't have cash. Like the Machete.

                  .50 BMG pistol: slow reload so who is going to use it?
                  One of those SS bastards that kite stuff all over the map and occasionally fire a shot. But yes, good point, probably unnecessary, and extremely rare IRL.

                  S&W 500 Magnum: low ammo, huge recoil so who is going to use it?
                  Anyone wanting a backup when an FP runs up? It's six very powerful shots. Again, a bear self-defense revolver is a logical choice for SC and FP. Those are common here in the US, too.
                  Don't know if it's a good idea to let people dual-wield them, but with a combined weight of 8 blocks and low ammo/slow reload it should be OK.

                  Taurus Judge: "crappy weapon" with low damage. Why pick this over the standard cheap shotgun?
                  Weights less, reloads faster. But yeah, more of a gimmick.

                  Sawed off shotgun: Already created
                  Single-shot shotgun: Why would ever use it?
                  As a pickup, as a way to carry more ammo (can be made 20ga or 10ga so draws on a different pool), as something to buy when you just spawned, etc. Cheap weapon for Supports.

                  Large caliber shotgun: Again, with the other shotguns in the game, who would ever use it?
                  Someone who prefers one big boom over a bunch of smaller booms.

                  Muha: Single shot with 3 weight? Who would ever buy it?
                  Anyone who has 3 weight blocks and 150 to spare? Fun gimmick.
                  Also makes a cool pickup.

                  Satchel charge: Again?
                  Again.

                  Shmel: So now the flamer can carry 1 weapon plus two shots of this? Who would ever use it?
                  Gives the flamer a way to kill FP (due to weakness to explosives). A heavy and expensive way, but still. On 6-man normal a direct Shmel hit should take say 75% of FP's hit points, kill&flame everyone around him.

                  KS Bottle: Another molotov that everyone has suggested a half dozen times already.
                  Yep, and made. The only fun feature would be to make it dangerous to the user.

                  Net launcher: Who would ever use something that stupid in the game?
                  Why not? The commando could net the FP or SC and either run away, waste ammo to kill em, or alert teammates. Teamwork, eh?

                  Again "Why?" None of the weapons are practical or bring anything useful to the game. The vast majority of weapons would actually be used once just so the player could see what happens and then never purchased again because playing with effectively unperked weapons or single (or double) shot high damage weapons means a short game.

                  Just about every one of these suggested weapons is a "Hey, wouldn't this be cool!" without ever considering how or if it would fit in the game.
                  The only other option is to make weapons that are better than the stock ones. A short trip down that road leads us to everyone using a minigun that fires chainsaws and the game turning into Serious Sam.

                  I want to add weapons that would add some variety without hugely unbalancing the game.

                  Best wishes,
                  Daniel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm sorry man but I can't really see most of these being good suggestions. They're all either pointless or rendered useless by other weapons.

                    Pitchfork - cheap, long range, low damage, push specimens back
                    Halberd - expensive, long range, good damage on a swing. Alt. attack stab to push specimens back
                    Sledgehammer - slow, high damage, stuns.
                    Flail - Needs to "charged" (spun up) for a second before a strike, the strike itself is quick. High damage, stuns.

                    I only really like the idea of is a sledgehammer. The others I can't see much use for and you would be much better off with a Katana or Axe.

                    .22 rifle (Ruger 10/22) - cheap, a TON of ammo, scoped& very accurate, no recoil, semiauto, low damage. Possibly 30-round mags, or mag capacity increasing from 10 to 30 with level of SS.


                    Ok, think for a second. Have you ever shot .22LR in real life? Have you seen how small the bullets are and how little punch they have? The biggest thing you can take down with it reliably is probably a squirrel. And even then you would probably need to shoot it multiple times. You would honestly use that weapon against mindless, unfeeling mutants who are intent on on ripping your face off? That's like saying you'd defend yourself against a Grizzly Bear by throwing pebbles at it.

                    Enfield - nuff said. Essentially a higher-damage, faster-reload LAR (Enfields can be loaded by swapping 10-round mags, you know). A bayonet alt-fire would be awesome, too.

                    Then why even have the LAR in the game anymore?

                    .22 pistol (e.g. Ruger MK III) - an option, but inferior to 9mm in all respects except the huge amount of mags and no recoil.
                    Alternatively, Kel-Tec PMR or FN 5-7 would be pretty much like the 9mm but with less recoil and 30rnd mags


                    See my statement on the .22 rifle.

                    Sawed-off bolt-action (e.g. Mosin-Nagant, or Enfield) - bolt-action pistol, essentially. No ironsights, bad accuracy, clumsy reload, but high damage. Poor man's Siren/Husk killer.

                    Why use that when you can buy an LAR for dirt cheap (or spawn with it at level 5) and it has great iron sights and kills Husks and Sirens in one headshot?

                    .50 BMG single-shot pistol - a pain to reload, but does a lot of damage. Poor man's M99, or a backup for M14.

                    Why use that over the LAR as a backup for the M14 when the LAR will be a much more useful weapon all around?

                    S&W 500 Magnum - bear self-defense revolver. A logical choice for specimens. HUGE recoil, low ammo, heavy(4 blocks?), far more damage than the HC.

                    I could see it being useful in some situations (maybe a quick way to finish off a weakened Scrake or FP) but in most others I think the Handcannon would be more useful.

                    Taurus Judge or other .410 revolver - fires weak shotgun rounds. IRL it's a crappy weapon due to low damage of pellets. In-game, could possibly be used to clear crowds of chaff in a pinch.

                    Why would I buy this when I could fill the slot with a Handcannon which is not only a pretty decent up close back up weapon, but also lets me shoot stuff at much longer range?

                    Sawed-off shotguns - MOAR spread, less weight, same cost, less ammo capacity for the pump. Backup point-blank weapons.

                    What is the point? The Hunting Shotgun is already the ultimate in point-blank spike damage so what benefit would it have?

                    Single-shot shotgun - has to be reloaded after every shot. Cheap.


                    Why would I buy this when I could buy a Pump Shotgun for

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      odd how ppl dont realize how deadly 22's actually are. no, they dont provide the kick and bang and bloodshed as larger calibers, but they kill just the same (more actually if you tally up body counts by caliber).
                      the 22's dont exit often, but they sure mess up the insides bouncing and ricocheting around in someone's guts/brainpan.

                      anyways quite a few of these have been made just for fun, and people use them because they are different from the normal selection of guns (eg; using scamp instead of mp7) on my modded servers, more variety = more fun for everyone, even though most of the trader time is spent looking through the 100's of guns, ppl still love that there is stuff they havent tried, even though it's basically the same as something else, who cares?
                      Last edited by ro_sauce; 05-07-2012, 06:16 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DarkFalz View Post
                        I'm sorry man but I can't really see most of these being good suggestions. They're all either pointless or rendered useless by other weapons.
                        Good point, I'll have to agree for a lot of them.

                        I think maybe these weapons would be useful in another game mode, e.g. "Civilian KF", where the starting weapons are weaker and the good weapons are more expensive.
                        I mean, even a low-level SS can dominate most enemies with a 9mm (heck you can take Scrakes down with dual 9mm pretty easy), and most classes can do serious damage right off the bat with their starting weapons.

                        The solution so far was to jack up specimen number&HP, but another possible way is to give people crappier weapons to start with.
                        Pitchfork - cheap, long range, low damage, push specimens back
                        Halberd - expensive, long range, good damage on a swing. Alt. attack stab to push specimens back
                        Sledgehammer - slow, high damage, stuns.
                        Flail - Needs to "charged" (spun up) for a second before a strike, the strike itself is quick. High damage, stuns.

                        I only really like the idea of is a sledgehammer. The others I can't see much use for and you would be much better off with a Katana or Axe.
                        Longer range of polearms has its uses. I mean, have you ever heard of anyone hunting bears or tigers with a katana? Right, me neither. You do it with a spear, mostly because that way they can't reach you.
                        .22 rifle (Ruger 10/22) - cheap, a TON of ammo, scoped& very accurate, no recoil, semiauto, low damage. Possibly 30-round mags, or mag capacity increasing from 10 to 30 with level of SS.

                        Ok, think for a second. Have you ever shot .22LR in real life? Have you seen how small the bullets are and how little punch they have? The biggest thing you can take down with it reliably is probably a squirrel. And even then you would probably need to shoot it multiple times. You would honestly use that weapon against mindless, unfeeling mutants who are intent on on ripping your face off? That's like saying you'd defend yourself against a Grizzly Bear by throwing pebbles at it.
                        Yep, I'm a gun nut. I've shot pretty much everything in KF (or at least something similar), except the heavy weapons. I also used to do some medieval reenactment when I was younger, so I have some idea on how to fight with blades and polearms.

                        That said, do you know what caliber is used to kill most people in the US? That's right, .22. It's lethal on a head or heart shot.
                        That little pellet is actually going pretty fast out of a rifle barrel - a month ago, I met a guy who uses high-velocity .22 to hunt deer (that is illegal of course, but who's gonna catch him on his property).

                        Now I do agree it should do crap damage on body shots, but a headshot on Normal difficulty should drop a Clot, Crawler, and other chaff - it tends to penetrate the skull and bounce around.
                        On higher difficulties, maybe 2 headshots - with no recoil and big mags, shouldn't be a problem.

                        Enfield - nuff said. Essentially a higher-damage, faster-reload LAR (Enfields can be loaded by swapping 10-round mags, you know). A bayonet alt-fire would be awesome, too.

                        Then why even have the LAR in the game anymore?
                        Exactly, I bet there are far more Enfields than LARs in Britain. Also, Enfield would be more expensive and a bit heavier.

                        .22 pistol (e.g. Ruger MK III) - an option, but inferior to 9mm in all respects except the huge amount of mags and no recoil.
                        Alternatively, Kel-Tec PMR or FN 5-7 would be pretty much like the 9mm but with less recoil and 30rnd mags


                        See my statement on the .22 rifle.
                        Agreed, lack of scope and small mags make it pointless. The only use would be a starting weapon for the above-mentioned "Civilian" mode.

                        Sawed-off bolt-action (e.g. Mosin-Nagant, or Enfield) - bolt-action pistol, essentially. No ironsights, bad accuracy, clumsy reload, but high damage. Poor man's Siren/Husk killer.

                        Why use that when you can buy an LAR for dirt cheap (or spawn with it at level 5) and it has great iron sights and kills Husks and Sirens in one headshot?
                        Should cost half of what a LAR does, do double the damage, and could be used as a cheap backup/ cute pickup the first couple waves.

                        .50 BMG single-shot pistol - a pain to reload, but does a lot of damage. Poor man's M99, or a backup for M14.

                        Why use that over the LAR as a backup for the M14 when the LAR will be a much more useful weapon all around?
                        True. Bad suggestion, not worth the effort.

                        S&W 500 Magnum - bear self-defense revolver. A logical choice for specimens. HUGE recoil, low ammo, heavy(4 blocks?), far more damage than the HC.

                        I could see it being useful in some situations (maybe a quick way to finish off a weakened Scrake or FP) but in most others I think the Handcannon would be more useful.
                        Well, it could also be made to penetrate weaker specimens. Fun stuff.

                        Taurus Judge or other .410 revolver - fires weak shotgun rounds. IRL it's a crappy weapon due to low damage of pellets. In-game, could possibly be used to clear crowds of chaff in a pinch.

                        Why would I buy this when I could fill the slot with a Handcannon which is not only a pretty decent up close back up weapon, but also lets me shoot stuff at much longer range?
                        Handcannon won't benefit from Support bonuses. Still, I suppose you're right - now that there are 4 shotguns available, no reason to have another weaker one.

                        Sawed-off shotguns - MOAR spread, less weight, same cost, less ammo capacity for the pump. Backup point-blank weapons.

                        What is the point? The Hunting Shotgun is already the ultimate in point-blank spike damage so what benefit would it have?
                        Cheaper, lighter. Otherwise, none.
                        [QUOTE] Single-shot shotgun - has to be reloaded after every shot. Cheap.

                        Why would I buy this when I could buy a Pump Shotgun for

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                        • #13
                          I know .22LR can deliver a fatal shot if you hit it the right spots. But you still need to be pretty precise with it if you want to be sure your target won't be getting back up so I would not want to use it for personal defense unless I was extremely confident in my aim.

                          In a life or death situation, I'd much rather have a 9mm or .45 ACP in my hands.

                          But let's try not let this thread go too far off-topic.

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                          • #14
                            Oh boy it's another one of these threads again! Oh the nostalgia!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by YoYoBatty View Post
                              Oh boy it's another one of these threads again! Oh the nostalgia!
                              Yep, it's nostalgia time.
                              203.217.24.135 - [}{] Killing Floor Legion server
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