1 of 2 < >

WIP Forum Upgrade

Please pardon our mess as we continue to iterate on the forum style, css and images. If you have any suggestions be sure to let us know in the off topic part of the forum!
2 of 2 < >

Forum Rules

  • Items changed, or highlighted for future attention, on 20 July 2013 are highlighted in yellow.
Global Rules
  • Forum moderators may or may not be Tripwire Interactive staff members, but either way, please respect them, as they are the authority of the forums. Speaking to them with intentional spite will not be tolerated and may result in the loss of your forum privileges.
  • Any decisions made by any member of staff or moderator are final and not subject to discussion. Doing so may result in a ban from the site. The owners of Tripwire Interactive Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason, as well as to remove access to the forums for any individuals with or without warning for breaches of the rules.
  • If you have a complaint regarding another user, PM the appropriate moderators, or if you have an administrative issue, [RO]schneidzekk.
General Behaviour
  • Use the search function before posting. Chances are your question has already been answered.
  • Use a title that describes the content of your post. Don't use all caps or special characters to draw attention either in the title or the body of the post.
  • Up to 10 emoticons are allowed in a post
  • Political discussions are prohibited.
  • Flaming - We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks. You will be banned if you persist in this behavior.
  • Trolls - Anyone deliberately antagonizing other forum users by posting 'flame bait' type messages is not welcome. You will be banned (possibly without warning depending on the severity of the issue) if you persist in this behavior.
  • Personal insults (directed at anyone) will result in a ban. If the behavior is not corrected, it will be made more permanent.
  • Constructive criticism is welcome. However keep in mind we (and other forums goers) may not agree with you. If you can't keep the conversation civil, you will be removed from the forums.
  • The use of hyperbole, one liners, and images as part of a forum debate is likely to get you infracted. You have many ways to participate and be a constructive part of this community, even when you disagree.
  • To make the highlighted bits above 100% clear to everyone, the following WILL NOT BE TOLERATED:
    1. Personal attacks, insults, antagonism of any forum-goers, moderators or Tripwire Interactive staff.
    2. Breaches of confidentiality and privacy of any sort.
    3. Any form of racism, bigotry or attacks on race, creed or color.
    4. Linking to posts on other forums related to ANY of the above, whether you are the originator or not, without exception.
  • There has been too much in the way of abhorrent personal behaviors in the past. These will cease. It doesn't matter who started it or who reacted to it - it will all result in moderator action. If you have to indulge your hatreds, for whatever reason, go do it elsewhere - and do not try and drag our forum-goers over to enjoy your hatreds.
  • We understand that people have strong feelings about our games, what we do for a living and how we respond (or don't) to comments on the forums. We all aren't going to agree about everything. So, BE CIVIL in your disagreements!
  • DO NOT Transmit any message, information, data, text, software or graphic files, or other materials ("Content") that is unlawful (including illegal drug usage), harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful or racially, ethnically, sexually or otherwise objectionable. This includes publicizing private information, such as individual's real names, IP addresses and anything else that might be used to identify them to the freakier members of the internet. This also means you may NOT publically share private communications (PM, email or anything else) without the original poster's permission.
  • DO NOT Post or transmit any Content that contains a virus, Trojan horse or other mischievous Content.
  • DO NOT Post or transmit any unsolicited advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail", "spam", "chain letters", "pyramid schemes" or any other form of solicitation.
  • DO NOT link to posts on any other forums, or any other form of media, that breaches our rules. It will be treated just the same as if you had posted it here.
  • DO NOT Double Post, cross Post or restart closed threads.
  • DO NOT Intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law, rule or regulation.
  • DO NOT Upload or transmit any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights ("Rights") of any party.
  • DO NOT complain about being banned from a server and DO NOT complain about other players on servers - that is between you and the admin, no need to get the community involved.
Username, Avatar and Signature Rules
  • Multiple registrations result in a ban.
  • No offensive user names
  • Avatars:
    Avatars are disabled.
  • All signatures should not exceed the following size limits, you can have both text and images
  • - For text signatures: 4 lines normal size, 8 lines small size and up to 100 chars per line. Font sizes above 2 are not allowed. (Blank lines count as lines.)
  • - For images in signatures: 1 image up to 400 pixels wide, 150 pixels tall and 100kb in size plus 2 lines normal size text and up to 100 chars per line
Netiquette: Written text has no inflection, and, as such, you should be careful how you write your messages as interpretation will vary from person to person. Please take advantage of the built-in emoticons to add such expression to your words. Please remember the golden rule: to treat other forum users the way you would like to be treated. Please use common courtesy, and enjoy using Red Orchestra's forums
Offensive material
The following is a list of some things that MAY be considered "offensive" by the moderators and the team. This is NOT an exclusive list and it does depend very much on context.

Crossing the line into "offensive" territory is likely to get you asked to change your name, sig or avatar or to withdraw/delete posts. This will be done politely by the moderators. If you refuse to comply further action WILL be taken once started, ultimately leading to banning from the forums.

A key point: please attempt to use your brains. What is mild humour to you may well be deeply offensive to others. While we have no intention of acting as politically-correct "thought police", we are on the lookout for those things that can cause offense and, in some cases, are actually still illegal in some jurisdictions.
  1. Names recalling notorious war criminals or personalities.
  2. Names recalling atrocities and war crimes in general, or units with particularly odious histories.
  3. Use of obscenities and expletives.
  4. Blatant racism, mysogynism or many other "ism"s.
  5. Use of symbolism and regalia recalling Nazism or Fascism; this does not include pics of soldiers who happen to have such symbols on their uniform, unless we feel this has been done to provoke. Please note that many Nazi symbols (including the Swastika) are still illegal in Germany and other countries and considered deeply offensive by many Europeans.
  6. Use of symbolism and regalia recalling Stalinism.
  7. On both the previous two, the moderators' views on the intention and impact of use of such symbols will be final - not yours. Please be understanding if you are advised to change something.
  8. In general, if a sig/avatar represents your allegiances in-game and is clearly "in part", it is likely to be fine; if the moderators feel you are trying to demonstrate unpalatable political allegiances, or to use it in an attempt to ridicule or provoke others you WILL be asked to change it. RO is NOT the place to make any extremist political statements of any kind.
So people get the idea, some examples that would be considered offensive, numbered as above:
  1. "Hitler", "Beria"
  2. "NKVD Blocking Detachment", "Einsatzgruppen"
  3. This one should be pretty obvious...
  4. So should this - and it includes calling all Germans "Nazis" and all Soviets/Russians "Commies". It got boring 50 years ago, so stop it.
  5. Use of swastikas, fasces, SS-runes and so on for the Axis.
  6. There is actually very little overt symbolism from the Stalinist era; the hammer-and-sickle isn't offensive per se.
A simple rule-of-thumb: many Europeans find Nazi symbolism of any sort offensive; many Americans still find Soviet symbolism offensive. Engage your brain before using.

Final Note: this is NOT open to debate, so please do NOT start whining and moaning if a moderator asks you to change something. They will advise at first, giving reasons, then, if you take no notice, they will step up the pressure through to banning.
See more
See less

Ideas for making Firebugs useful at endgame

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ideas for making Firebugs useful at endgame

    Firebugs tend to be looked at as the least useful class, and it's rare that they're ever seen on Hell on Earth.

    On the other hand, personally speaking, when using the firebug on the easier difficulties (hard or below), they tend to be rather good. Apart from a complete inability to take out fleshpounds, they can kill scrakes, and can kill anything below a scrake rather easily. I'd rank them as the best class to play as for waves 1-5 in terms of survivability and effectiveness.
    Ideally then, they need changes which will improve them on harder difficulties, without overpowering them on earlier difficulties.

    I would suggest the following changes be made to firebugs, to make them more feasible to play endgame:
    1. Speed decrease - When zombies have been set on fire, after a while they crispen up and suffer a movement speed decrease and go into a brief random panic. Could their speed slowly and evenly drop off from normal until they reach their crispened state. This would really help on HoE when the zeds just move so darned quick, but wouldn't noticably impact earlier levels when zeds are killed by initial flame damage, or early DoT damage, and don't have a chance to even REACH crispened state.
    2. Fairer DoT - Currently the flame damage over time a zed takes will be from the first fire damage it receives, and will exponentially increase over the duration of the DoT. Not only does this seem strange from a logic PoV (a zed is set on fire, and will gradually receive more fire damage as the flames die out?), but it severely reduces the potency of DoTs for a firebug on harder difficulties where the speed of the zeds means they will take very little DoT damage. I would suggest a) DoTs deal even damage per tick - the first tick deals the same damage as the last tick, and b) Every time a zed receives direct fire damage (from flamethrower, MAC10 etc. Not from the DoT) then it renews the number of ticks remaining on the DoT. Again, this would help on HoE where zeds have far more health and aren't killed by the initial direct fire damage.
    3. The crispening - currently, zeds crispen up 10 seconds after taking flame damage for the first time. This is disappointing, because crispening zeds is one of the things that makes a firebug a team player, but especially on later modes, zeds will have plenty of time to walk to the player and attack him for a couple seconds before the crispening takes effect. On earlier modes, zeds are most often dead from damage long before crispening happens at all. I would suggest that instead of being time-based, crispening happens based on fire damage taken instead. The aim being that if a zed is hit by a flame-based weapon, after the initial damage, plus the 10 seconds of DoT are added up, the damage will be enough to crispen the zed. However, if a firebug really needs, he can continue to hose down the zed with fire to increase the flame damage dealt, and crispen the zed far faster than normal.
      As an alternative, perhaps zeds could take more damage from all sources when crispened (perhaps take 110% damage from any source across the board), which would encourage firebugs to set many things on fire and let them crispen, rather than killing individual zeds.
      In addition, I would suggest that husk cannons instantly crispen zeds, which would set them apart from flamethrowers significantly, make them more desirable and tie in with their massive ball of fire thing.
      Again, this would be of limited use on earlier modes because the zeds die too fast, but would allow players to shoot fire for a little longer at zeds on higher modes to cripsen them up.

    I think implementing the above suggestions would go a long way towards making firebugs more desirably again on harder difficulties without overpowering them on earlier difficulties.

    Below are my original thoughts, which were condensed into the above list.
    Last edited by Althamus; 06-27-2012, 04:17 PM.
    Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
    I don't like medics.
    Mostly play on HoE thesedays.

  • #2
    I like point 2 a lot, would be very helpful for the team. The others, i dunno.
    EDIT: I also like point 6, that the total DoT damage is the same, just done faster (over 8 secs, instead of over 10 secs, for example)

    Another thing i'd like to point out, which is also a reason why the DoT is a little weak (in particular in the higher difficulties) is that the damage of the DoT "increases" over the duration. The base DoT's first tick of damage is as low as 22-24 damage, and the LAST tick of the burn deals as much as 60-78 damage. The total damage of the whole burn is between 419 and 510 damage. Which means an average of 464 damage.

    Instead of having such an "increasing" damage over time, I'd rather let each tick be equal in strength, thus each tick should always be dealing 46 or 47 damage. That could make a slight improvement too perhaps?
    Last edited by Aze; 03-14-2012, 02:02 PM.
    My KF2 suggestions:


    • #3
      I didn't realise the burn DoT increased in intensity as it went on. Seems a bit odd, I would've expected it to be the other way around logically (after all, if something burns for a bit and then goes out, the fire is normally dying down).

      Having said that, I can understand why making it happen this way would be a little overpowered in the game xP

      I've added the suggestion to my original post for the burn DoT to be constant all through.

      Also, just thought that IMHO the two main reasons firebugs have such a hard time on higher levels is that a) the mobs move faster and b) they have more HPs. These two factors combined mean that any DoT you put on the mobs has a much smaller effect compared to lower levels, and consequently the firebug in general is less effective.
      I've mostly been thinking of ways to slow the mobs down to let the DoTs deal more damage rather than just plain old ramping up the firebug's damage. But I wonder whether the fire damage could somehow be % based, rather than a flat figure? This would presumably make the firebug equally useful at all difficulties, because all difficulties are (almost) equally hard for him.
      I can spot all sorts of holes in this idea before I even began (all difficulties are equally hard = defeats the point, % based damage makes fleshpounds equally hard to kill as crawlers etc), but I'll stick it down incase it sparks off another idea in someone else's head.
      Last edited by Althamus; 03-14-2012, 02:04 PM.
      Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
      I don't like medics.
      Mostly play on HoE thesedays.


      • #4
        Originally posted by Althamus View Post
        I didn't realise the burn DoT increased in intensity as it went on. Seems a bit odd, I would've expected it to be the other way around logically (after all, if something burns for a bit and then goes out, the fire is normally dying down).
        Mac10 delivers 38-39 burning damage in the first second, 65-75 - in the 10th (no matter which level firebug are you, even 0, but not the off-perk).
        Level 6 firebug's flamer delivers 35-38 burning damage in the first second, 96-124 - in the 10th.

        I agree this is stupid and already suggested to change it in this post.
        KF-DarkZone released! Check it out...


        • #5
          I'm always supportive of making firebug more useful, it is one of my favorite perks, but sadly you never could use it on top tier difficulties, it just didn't do enough damage or support to merit using it.

          There are so many who wish the same as you and I, I just hope it happens eventually.


          • #6
            Shorter burning with the same total damage, average damage per tick and insta-crispen for the husk cannon all sound good to me.
            I don't know how crispen works, but it should also be possible to hose down a ZED to make him crispen really fast, so some sort of fire-damage-dealt threshold for the crispen effect would be good, if it isn't already in place.


            • #7
              As far as I know, crispening happens 10 seconds after the zed has been set on fire (by flamethrower/husk cannon/MAC10, not explosives(demo)). It's a good idea to quicken that based on amount of fire though, to allow players to hose fps down and crisp them much faster.
              Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
              I don't like medics.
              Mostly play on HoE thesedays.


              • #8
                100% agree on all points, except the Husk Gun. At this point the best thing to do would probably be to write it off as a gigantic cluster**** and start from scratch with a gun nearly identical to the one that the husk actually carries, replete with the unlimited ammo, recharging cool-down, slow ROF, and (likely) high weight. Oh, and it shouldn't cost as much as 5 1/3 FTs when the FT is infinitely more useful (read: less horrible) than the husk gun. The only use I've found so far for the husk gun is stunning scrakes, and there are MUCH, MUCH cheaper and easier ways to do that.
                Also at the risk of shameless self-promotion I think that this fits perfectly with your second point.
                Last edited by Lacedaemonius; 03-18-2012, 07:28 PM.
                Know the difference!


                • #9
                  I agree with lace here. As to the Husk Launcher, they should definitely re-work it. It's like a bad attempt by TWI to create a longer ranged weapon for pyros. A better idea would've been to give it a moderate on-impact damage increase and give it unlimited ammo with a (3 / 5 second?) cool down. Although, I like the charge function, if someone edit'd it, they could implement my earlier thoughts and just make it so you do moderate dmg with a low power shot and a charged shot (5 - 10 secs?) about the same damage as the law (Lower but close, though) Ack, anyway, My favorite point is 6.

                  Damage increase - Enough with these namby-pamby things. Just give the firebug a flat +X% damage increase to all fire-based weapons on later difficulties. Other obvious ways to improve the firebug are faster DoTs (so the DoT will deal the same damage, but in a shorter duration), or that the afterburn is more powerful.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lacedaemonius View Post
                    and start from scratch with a gun nearly identical to the one that the husk actually carries, replete with the unlimited ammo, recharging cool-down, slow ROF, and (likely) high weight.
                    Hmm. It sounds a lot like another crossbow/LAW. Disadvantage being that if a firebug were to carry something like a crossbow/LAW and a MAC10 (assuming he could take both), it would entirely change his role. He's currently a trashkiller, and while I'm all for giving him a bit of variance and ability to kill big things (IMHO he struggles more than any other class at taking down big guns), his role shouldn't slide to "heavy killer".

                    I reckon the husk launcher could get infinite ammo, larger impact damage, auto-crispening effect and that's it. After all, getting hit by a husk rocket ingame doesn't exactly give your health a pummeling as would be represented by the husk launcher becoming a LAW.

                    I think the auto-crispening thing would be a big bonus for bugs, especially on HoE. The ability to pop a FP and drop his movement speed cannot be underestimted. Plus, for everything else it'd give them time to get hurt by the DoT. And it would kinda fit with the fact that the husk launcher has a lot of fire without actually turning it into another boss mob hunter.
                    Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
                    I don't like medics.
                    Mostly play on HoE thesedays.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Althamus View Post
                      Hmm. It sounds a lot like another crossbow/LAW. Disadvantage being that if a firebug were to carry something like a crossbow/LAW and a MAC10 (assuming he could take both), it would entirely change his role. He's currently a trashkiller, and while I'm all for giving him a bit of variance and ability to kill big things (IMHO he struggles more than any other class at taking down big guns), his role shouldn't slide to "heavy killer"
                      Sure, it would be exactly the same, only without the mobility of the xbow, the blast radius of the LAW, or the range and power of either. Oh, and it can't headshot and looks much cooler. In fact, now that I think about it it sounds much closer to a M79 than anything else.
                      Know the difference!


                      • #12
                        Ah, phew. I can agree with a husk launcher becoming a bit like an M79. I was thinking (probably because I'd just come from the "make the LAW a super-weapon" topic) that you were talking about making the husk launcher into a FP killer, and was thinking it didn't really fit with how I imagined it to be.

                        And now reading over your post again, I have no clue why I thought that.

                        Actually, the more I thinka bout it, having a husk cannon as a kinda cross between the M79 and M32 (but with maybe lower damage and no bonuses vs fps) would be kinda cool.

                        Next question:
                        The firebug currently has 3 weapons:
                        Flamethrower (which can kill at short range and kill many things very quickly).
                        MAC10 (which can kill at medium range and can Husks as well. Kills things pretty quickly on spray and pray, or moderate speed on single shots).
                        Husk cannon (which can kill at long range, slow firing rate, AoE)
                        Thompson gun (which is probably coming to firebug from what I've read, and which I'm guessing will be medium range again, hit harder and have a slower firing speed than a MAC, but mostly fulfil the same role as it. Although any IRL gun buffs out there, feel free to correct me if the Thompson was well known for certain traits).

                        What other types of guns would work well with firebugs? If we were to have another one added? Are there any other fitting roles a weapon could fulfil? *cough* Sidearm medium range accurate slow-firing gun maybe? So you can snipe a little better than with a MAC, or without giving up the FT for a husk cannon? *cough*.
                        Last edited by Althamus; 03-19-2012, 11:24 PM.
                        Favourite classes: Sharp/support/demo (not a stupid demo don't worry).
                        I don't like medics.
                        Mostly play on HoE thesedays.


                        • #13
                          I think husk cannon is fine D8 D8

                          With the help of a pipe spam, we did ok against the Patriarch on HoE

                          KF HoE Husk Cannon DERRRRRP - YouTube
                          A.K.A. D.H.Nips


                          • #14
                            I wholeheartedly agree on making the burn damage over time more efficient, especially so everyone isn't "oh...a Firebug... :[ " on Suicidal/ Hell on Earth.

                            As far as the Husk's fireball launcher goes, I think it fills a nice anti-Scrake niche. Even off-perk (Demolitions, for example) you can still stun Scrakes. Give it to a Sharpshooter (for the lulz) and you can two-shot Scrakes like with a crossbow. A glowy, noisy, iron-sighted crossbow that charges in 3 seconds. xD

                            The additional magazines for the MAC10 are definitely appreciated. Now it's even harder to completely run out of ammo for Firebug weapons even if you're spraying. ^_^

                            As far as the IJC Thompson goes, it would be nice to get for the Firebug but we'll see how the voting goes, how it will compare to the MAC10 and so on.


                            • #15
                              If firebug needs anything, it is to also have a 10-11 grenade slot!