Excuse me? stoner 63A does LESS damage than AR15? Seriously?

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Topic explains everything!

opinions from my friends: The 63A is the commando version of P90(post perk)! weak and heavy, better play SWAT instead!

 

[silverlighted]

People wanted a lmg in the face of balance...and now they got it lol.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

People wanted a lmg in the face of balance...and now they got it lol.

I thought TWI got the way of "balance" upon the news of LMG until they released it in the game. No, they didn't. A T4 with weaker damage than T1 is an interesting approach.

I also noted that this LMG is rated at 900 rpm. That's another interesting part. I didn't think there is an assault rifle in KF2 with such a high rof before. Also, about this LMG, carrying both the "BIG MAG" and "HIGH RATE OF FIRE" specialty made the balance a difficult issue.

Why doesn't TWI just make a big mag version of AK or SA80 and name it an LMG? (The weapons do exist- the RPK74 and the L86LSW) No change in damage or rate of fire. That's a hell lot easier to balance.

 

[Aleflippy]

Well, as a level 19 commando on hard difficulty, the weapon was good enough... Considering you can get as much as 150 bullets per mag with the right skills, I'd say it's only fair to make it that way.

Now maybe they could lower the mag size just a tiny bit to 60 and increase damages slightly, I wouldn't argue with that...

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Well, as a level 19 commando on hard difficulty, the weapon was good enough... Considering you can get as much as 150 bullets per mag with the right skills, I'd say it's only fair to make it that way.

Now maybe they could lower the mag size just a tiny bit to 60 and increase damages slightly, I wouldn't argue with that...

Any weapon is good enough on hard,dude.
I would also like to see the damage up to at least 30, but instead of lower the magazine size, I'd rather see a lower rate of fire. This lmg doesn't have to be high on damage per second- we have SCAR for it. A large magazine lmg with lower damage per second is the one I want.

 

[silverlighted]

This lmg doesn't have to be high on damage per second- we have SCAR for it. A large magazine lmg with lower damage per second is the one I want.

I think that's a reasonable alternative approach. But I imagine (and this could be a totally unfair generalization) that a lot of the ppl who were asking for an LMG probably want that high rof. Which is why I made my earlier comment...cause in all the lmg threads we've seen here and in the kf1 forums, I felt like it was expected that the unsatisfying damage per round was gonna be the balancing outcome.

(to clarify, those lmg threads...ppl not only wanted high rof, but also high damage per round, and the balancing feature was gonna be weight, reload speed, and movement speed, you would basically be an expensive turret.)

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

I think that's a reasonable alternative approach. But I imagine (and this could be a totally unfair generalization) that a lot of the ppl who were asking for an LMG probably want that high rof. Which is why I made my earlier comment...cause in all the lmg threads we've seen here and in the kf1 forums, I felt like it was expected that the unsatisfying damage per round was gonna be the balancing outcome.

(to clarify, those lmg threads...ppl not only wanted high rof, but also high damage per round, and the balancing feature was gonna be weight, reload speed, and movement speed, you would basically be an expensive turret.)

High rof combined with high damage per round makes a SPIKE weapon like the boomstick. However, the plot of commando perk is for continuous firing with low spike performance. (Within this limit, the commando weapon with the highest spike damage performance is the SCAR, with a small magazine of 20 rds.)

A balanced LMG with high rof and damage, along with slow reload and great weight?? That's like a SCAR with 1200 rpm, 15 weight and double (or triple) the reload time. I'm afraid that those guys who yelled, no one of them would ever dare, let alone love to use it- You'll be reloading all the time in exchange for the shining moments firing it, and with huge vulnerabilities during the reload! They call for it but would NOT enjoy it!

In fact, I really had thought of an idea of a commando sidearm with SPIKE damage-the Glock 18C. With rof as high as 1,200 rpm it dumps a whole magazine of 20 rounds in 1 sec. In my idea, this weapon shall deliver same DPS with SCAR in this only sec. It's a perfect backup weapon for commando and behave like the boomstick in support's hand. (In my opinion the G18C is a T2) But a 15-weight spike weapon, as the PRIMARY and ONLY weapon? HELL NO



Geeez, If there is a 15-weight LMG, I'll assume its damage to be around 40-50 and with a magazine capacity of 75-100. Something like an RPK-16 or FN HAMR or whatever refurbished gun names. Their stats, except the big magazine, will be not too far from AK or SCAR. That's the right way of making a LMG.

 

[taiiat]

it's not necessarily as 'crazy' as it looks, in addition to a gigantic box Magazine and high Automatic Rate of Fire, you also get average (rather than low) Stumble Power, average Accuracy(rather than low), and a downright monumental amount of Ammunition.

and besides, what's to stop there being a Medium Machine Gun in the future as you seem to be looking for, as well as this Light Machine Gun?

Their stats, except the big magazine, will be not too far from AK or SCAR. That's the right way of making a LMG.

wouldn't that just make it universally superior to the Assault Rifles? just does literally everything better? Killing Floor doesn't follow a mantra like that traditionally, while Weapons are Tiered, most of them still have appealing features vs each other and fill different roles.
there are certainly some exceptions like Desert Eagle>1911 in all ways, AK-12>L85 in almost all ways, Flamethrower>Caulk/Burn in all ways but weight - in general Weapons still serve purposes despite there being generally more powerful ones available.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

wouldn't that just make it universally superior to the Assault Rifles? just does literally everything better? Killing Floor doesn't follow a mantra like that traditionally, while Weapons are Tiered, most of them still have appealing features vs each other and fill different roles.
there are certainly some exceptions like Desert Eagle>1911 in all ways, AK-12>L85 in almost all ways, Flamethrower>Caulk/Burn in all ways but weight - in general Weapons still serve purposes despite there being generally more powerful ones available.

You are very right and I agree that guns have "special characters" instead of universally superior on all stats in KF2.

However, I did not make the LMG universally superior to ARs as well.
First, it is a 15-weight weapon, which means NO secondary weapons. If you have a dry mag of the LMG you'll NOT have another AR in hand like the traditional commandos do. You can do nothing but reload it under enemy fire and this is a HUGE disadvantage (more severely if this LMG has long reload).
Second, I said stats not too far,huh? Like a damage of 40 and rof at 600? (That's AK's stats) or a damage of 50 and rof at 550? (M60E4's stats, very near to SCAR) The SCAR always beat it in some aspects dude. That's not a universally superior. The LMG isn't designed to be superior at all stats, nor shall it. The highest spike damage always goes to SCAR.

 

[Azukki]

Realistically, the 63A being weaker than the little 9mm ar15 is weird. It being a little weaker than the l85a2 and m16 makes sense, same rounds, shorter barrel. So the weird thing there is how strong the little 9mm ar15 is, ever since it was buffed a while back.

More important, gameplay, I think 25 damage is about right. It's still enough to achieve many of the same shots-to-kill on trash as our regular assault rifle damage of 30, but it's also enough weaker to hurt its performance against mid/big zeds, contributing (along with reloads and weight) to counterbalancing the excellent capacity, rate of fire, reserve ammo, and recoil, making a very unique balanced weapon.

Don't get me wrong, I think a stronger LMG could work too, but this loads-of-weak-bullets role is more interesting, and more fitting, since the LMG we've got is a shorty 5.56.
Commando will probably have to wait a while before getting any more content, but eventually maybe we'll get another LMG that better fits the heavier, stronger-per-shot role you hoped for. RPD comes to mind.

The SCAR and 63A should keep or expand the contrast that they have for variety's sake, I think.
SCAR has nice potential for mid/big zeds through DPS, so if the 63A needs to be made more appealing, rather than making it less special by boosting it to more standard damage, I think its potential for trash should be improved.
Penetration getting added to the 63A could do that. It wouldn't have to be a whole lot. A good starting point could be enough that a stalker/crawler/cyst (20 head health, 1.5x assault rifle damage vulnerability) behind a cyst/clot/slasher/siren (1 penetration resistance) barely gets 1shot decapitated with hollow point skill, but a slasher/clot (20 head health, no assault rifle damage vulnerability) behind one wouldn't. I'm not sure about my math, but I think a penetration score of 1.9 would do that.

 

[s5yn3t]

I don't know about you guys but i find lmg quite a strong weapon, with its 1875 dmg potential vs ak12 1200 and obsolite scar's 1000.
Had couple of game in descend sui 6 man and i was soloing scrake with the lmg and had no problem taking you.... it's also more forgiving when you're going vs scrake because of the larger mag, where with ak12 you have to be precise on headshots..... and scar has to be reloaded before finishing of sc because lets face it, you can't hit 100% consistent headshots when it's too chaotic and close quarters (unless you use an aimbot)

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Realistically, the 63A being weaker than the little 9mm ar15 is weird. It being a little weaker than the l85a2 and m16 makes sense, same rounds, shorter barrel. So the weird thing there is how strong the little 9mm ar15 is, ever since it was buffed a while back.

More important, gameplay, I think 25 damage is about right. It's still enough to achieve many of the same shots-to-kill on trash as our regular assault rifle damage of 30, but it's also enough weaker to hurt its performance against mid/big zeds, contributing (along with reloads and weight) to counterbalancing the excellent capacity, rate of fire, reserve ammo, and recoil, making a very unique balanced weapon.

Don't get me wrong, I think a stronger LMG could work too, but this loads-of-weak-bullets role is more interesting, and more fitting, since the LMG we've got is a shorty 5.56.
Commando will probably have to wait a while before getting any more content, but eventually maybe we'll get another LMG that better fits the heavier, stronger-per-shot role you hoped for. RPD comes to mind.

The SCAR and 63A should keep or expand the contrast that they have for variety's sake, I think.
SCAR has nice potential for mid/big zeds through DPS, so if the 63A needs to be made more appealing, rather than making it less special by boosting it to more standard damage, I think its potential for trash should be improved.
Penetration getting added to the 63A could do that. It wouldn't have to be a whole lot. A good starting point could be enough that a stalker/crawler/cyst (20 head health, 1.5x assault rifle damage vulnerability) behind a cyst/clot/slasher/siren (1 penetration resistance) barely gets 1shot decapitated with hollow point skill, but a slasher/clot (20 head health, no assault rifle damage vulnerability) behind one wouldn't. I'm not sure about my math, but I think a penetration score of 1.9 would do that.

The low damage for 63A has less affaction to the gameplay than I estimated, I realized it too. It's because that most trash zeds own a static head health of 20. With the passives and LV20 left(HP rounds) of a LV25 commando, the perked weapon damage of commando is 50% up, which resulted in 38 damage. Enough to kill clots and stalkers and crawlers, probably gorefasts too. (I havn't been able to enter game to test it.)

However, there is one thing which must be noticed: Decapped body walls. They eat lead before die down. That's why I perfer using SCARs to take them out. Headshotting them with SCAR will cause INSTANT drop deads and avoid body walls.

Also: The ammo pricing of 63A is unforgiven. Hope that the ammo pool of 63A is increased to 600 and its ammo price lowered to at least $0.8/round. Nowadays price of $0.93/round is too expensive for such an ammo eater!

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

I don't know about you guys but i find lmg quite a strong weapon, with its 1875 dmg potential vs ak12 1200 and obsolite scar's 1000.
Had couple of game in descend sui 6 man and i was soloing scrake with the lmg and had no problem taking you.... it's also more forgiving when you're going vs scrake because of the larger mag, where with ak12 you have to be precise on headshots..... and scar has to be reloaded before finishing of sc because lets face it, you can't hit 100% consistent headshots when it's too chaotic and close quarters (unless you use an aimbot)

Are you using a LV25 commando? If equipped with 20 left(HP rounds) and 10 right(Ballistic shock) you should be able to solo SC with SCAR and AK on HOE. Soloing an SC on suicidal as commando is nothing to be bragged.

 

[infntnub]

Nobody should be surprised to see the individual bullet damage on an LMG is ridiculously low...

Enjoy your insane amount of bullets to offset. It's a balancing act.. and honestly.. it was the right approach to start. Imagine high damage and high ammo capacity..

That would be the definition of broken.

I'd expect a slight buff once TWI gets a good amount of feedback, but nothing crazy.

 

[Gregs2k2]

As stated above, it's about balance. A high capacity mag with high fire rate dishing out high damage would be rather OP. It's made for trash zeds and contributing smaller amounts to FPs and Scrakes. I like to call it the "Room Broom" - It's all about balancing. I did perfectly fine with my lvl 25 Commando on Suicidal (not quite skilled for HoE just yet) with over 500 rounds of ammo.

 

[oldmidget]

would have been a millino times better with a mag count of 40-50 and more damage.

now its pretty much just good for cleaning trash, you can take scrakes/FPs cheaper and easier with scar and ak IMO.

plus its useless on boss wave. its the t4 id least like to have against boss haha.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Nobody should be surprised to see the individual bullet damage on an LMG is ridiculously low...

Enjoy your insane amount of bullets to offset. It's a balancing act.. and honestly.. it was the right approach to start. Imagine high damage and high ammo capacity..

That would be the definition of broken.

I'd expect a slight buff once TWI gets a good amount of feedback, but nothing crazy.

I didn't expect crazy stuff either. But insane amount of bullets? No dude, the amount of bullets is far from insane. The 63A is very easy to run dry with its 500rds ammo pool.

 

[s5yn3t]

Are you using a LV25 commando? If equipped with 20 left(HP rounds) and 10 right(Ballistic shock) you should be able to solo SC with SCAR and AK on HOE. Soloing an SC on suicidal as commando is nothing to be bragged.

So is braging about soloing a sc on hoe, and yes i do use a lvl 25 commando and imo scar is the worst weapon in the commando's arsenal right now having no use, pathetic dmg potential and not good enough on soloing a sc on sui and hoe with just one mag. It used to be a good rifle, now it's just a waste of 1500 dosh.

 

[infntnub]

Like I said in my previous post - an LMG is something that really needs to be carefully balanced. It would take very little to make this thing OP.

The starting point TWI chose seems to be a good one IMO. It's always better to start on the weaker side and build up instead of vice versa.

Keep leaving feedback and I'm sure there will be adjustments made in the not too distant future.

 

[Gladius]

The stoner is on the weapon spectrum, exactly where it's supposed to be.

It excells at trash clearing due to the 113 rounds belt, at the tradeoff of having too low DPS to take down scrakes at close quarters safely, like it can be done with the high tier mando rifles.