Do you play SWAT as your "primary" perk?

[simplecat]

Dispose? I don't think. I might save you a few seconds if you retreat but it doesn't feel like an easy win. If you wondering about the numbers - it slows Scrake for 3 seconds and has 5.5s cooldown, cooldown begin at the time as incap so the patern is 3s of slow movement - 2.5s of immunity.

I like to use it as it handy and helpful and i'm not a fan of the extra armor.

 

[Gladius]

Incorrect, SWAT's mobility advantage revolves around ADS, a state where the player is normally slowed hence will outrun by hostiles, let them be the fast moving Crawlers or the stiffly moving Cysts.

Practically speaking, SWAT's agility advantage doesn't enable the perk to flee faster but allowing it to tackle Zeds by backing and gunning at the same time, which should prove adequate even if they are the more resilient big games under the right circumstance (sufficient space for backing off).

You are missing the point here. I can do exactly the same with the SWAT while hipfiring, instead of aiming down sights. This skill is a gadget. Not a gamechanger.

 

[Gladius]

In the case of Commando's stumble, however, it's a lot less reliable not just because such reaction has a cooldown but because it also requires a threshold of kinetic impacts from the harder kicking rifles.

In comparison, SWAT can put its target to a 30% slow; a state where the target will maintain in its usual stance for unaffected hit rate as long as headshots are successful, which shouldn't prove any trouble given the recoils are easier as mentioned.

What cat wrote...

The thing is that when SWAT runs out of flashbangs he has a way harder time with scrakes, than mando has.

 

[mrnok14l]

You are missing the point here. I can do exactly the same with the SWAT while hipfiring, instead of aiming down sights. This skill is a gadget. Not a gamechanger.

So you meant you can be evasive and achieve near 100% hit rate while firing fullauto from the hip with Commando?

Well, if I didn't read it wrong, to my knowledge - either your game was hacked or something beyond my comprehension was happening.

What cat wrote...

The thing is that when SWAT runs out of flashbangs he has a way harder time with scrakes, than mando has.

Although not entirely, yes, the SWAT's raw DPS is simply lower than Commando's (without factoring in the hit rate).

On practical terms, being inferior by the raw DPS aspect doesn't make the SWAT to have a 'way harder time' with Scrakes. Courtesy of SWAT may have the luxury to sacrifice neither mobility or accuracy, facing off big games like Scrake without the use of Flashbang shouldn't prove too troublesome even in contrast to Commando's performance.

Personally, due to SWAT's SMGs can perform far more consistently; I'd say it is difficulty-wise easier to tackle Scrake as a SWAT than as a Commando where factors like the recoil and the risk/safety are more prominent for the latter, as least this is where my knowledge coincides with my experiences with said perks thus far.

 

[Gladius]

So you meant you can be evasive and achieve near 100% hit rate while firing fullauto from the hip with Commando?

Well, if I didn't read it wrong, to my knowledge - either your game was hacked or something beyond my comprehension was happening.

With AK12 burst hipfire mando can have even higher DPS output on the move than SWAT.

Although not entirely, yes, the SWAT's raw DPS is simply lower than Commando's (without factoring in the hit rate).

On practical terms, being inferior by the raw DPS aspect doesn't make the SWAT to have a 'way harder time' with Scrakes. Courtesy of SWAT may have the luxury to sacrifice neither mobility or accuracy, facing off big games like Scrake without the use of Flashbang shouldn't prove too troublesome even in contrast to Commando's performance.

Personally, due to SWAT's SMGs can perform far more consistently; I'd say it is difficulty-wise easier to tackle Scrake as a SWAT than as a Commando where factors like the recoil and the risk/safety are more prominent for the latter, as least this is where my knowledge coincides with my experiences with said perks thus far.

Thats a you problem when you can't hit. Scrakes can be killed with every weapon due to the fact that they can be outrunned. Question is how long it takes and the only thing that is relevant besides your hit rate is the DPS. More DPS means less space needed before you have the scrake in your face = better.

 

[Denks]

Personally, due to SWAT's SMGs can perform far more consistently; I'd say it is difficulty-wise easier to tackle Scrake as a SWAT than as a Commando where factors like the recoil and the risk/safety are more prominent for the latter, as least this is where my knowledge coincides with my experiences with said perks thus far.

Totally agree. Given the choice of facing a Scrake as a SWAT or a Commando with perk weapons only, I'll take SWAT with or without a grenade. The giant magazine plus the 30% slow means it's quite rare for the Scrake to ever touch me. As Commando, perfect solo takedown of a 6-man suicidal Scrake means I need a long range and no distractions. Too rare. That leave me with no choice but to actually be a team player and fulfill the role of trash cleaner. The horror.

 

[mrnok14l]

With AK12 burst hipfire mando can have even higher DPS output on the move than SWAT.

Firing at the pace of 1200RPM is going to cost a plenty of missed shots not due to the recoil - as you don't seem to care at all - but due to the spread/bloom itself, hence on practical terms hindering the effective DPS.

Thats a you problem when you can't hit. Scrakes can be killed with every weapon due to the fact that they can be outrunned. Question is how long it takes and the only thing that is relevant besides your hit rate is the DPS. More DPS means less space needed before you have the scrake in your face = better.

Alright, assuming the operator is so good at wrestling with the recoil and is able to maximizes the hit rate; still, neither Commando nor SWAT can drop Scrake as fast as the Gunslinger or the Sharpshooter; meaning as long as safety is a concern, space is always an unignorable factor for said perks to tackle Scrakes - and as I've been pointing out: this is where SWAT outperforms its rifle-wielding kin.

Moreover, it still doesn't pose much liabilities for the SWAT to tackle Scrakes; nor does it made Commando significantly better than the SWAT in this regard as if the Commando is better overall; because it is only a difference of 5-20 hits or so depending on the actual amount of health that the Scrake has - and that both of said perks are good at rapid fires, though I'd argue that SWAT will perform better in this manner (mag size & recoil).

---

All ZEDs below Husk extremely vulnerable to slow down and it doesn't really matter where exactly you land your shots. It should take 2 hits with any swat weapon to slow them down.

All ZEDs above the Husk take twice more (FP - 3 times more) of the snare power when you hit the legs. Implying the dissipation rate of the snare incap, with the slowest firing weapon (p90) it should take around 12-13 bullets to slow ZED on non leg shots and 2 (3) times less on leg shots.

There might be a misbelief that slow down works as long as you keep shooting but in fact this effect has its maximum duration and cooldown.

..

..

Thanks for the info!

 

[Gladius]

Alright, assuming the operator is so good at wrestling with the recoil and is able to maximizes the hit rate; still, neither Commando nor SWAT can drop Scrake as fast as the Gunslinger or the Sharpshooter; meaning as long as safety is a concern, space is always an unignorable factor for said perks to tackle Scrakes - and as I've been pointing out: this is where SWAT outperforms its rifle-wielding kin.

And as I have been pointing out several times you are wrong here. Obviously you and Denks don't know much about playing mando.

Try skills R-R-R-L-L and then the AK12 in burst fire mode and the scrake will have moved a shorter distance as compared to the Vector on SWAT.

 

[oldmidget]

And as I have been pointing out several times you are wrong here. Obviously you and Denks don't know much about playing mando.

Try skills R-R-R-L-L and then the AK12 in burst fire mode and the scrake will have moved a shorter distance as compared to the Vector on SWAT.

AK-12 burst is so fun in zed time haha.

 

[mrnok14l]

And as I have been pointing out several times you are wrong here. Obviously you and Denks don't know much about playing mando.

Try skills R-R-R-L-L and then the AK12 in burst fire mode and the scrake will have moved a shorter distance as compared to the Vector on SWAT.

My previous statement was made with the acknowledgment towards Commando's skill tree.

Even we if inhumanly exclude the tiny breaks between each trigger pull that'd have caused the AK-12 fails to deliver its top performance (achieving 1200RPM effectively), I will still consider the AK-12 to be far less consistent than SWAT's SMGs (or just the Kriss SMG if you prefer) because in no way we have been arguing firing at a less harmful Scrake face close in test environment so neither the spread that would have caused some shots being thrown off or the recoil that would have led even more shots went up astray are really relevant, am I right?

 

[Gladius]

I'm getting bored because you can only see what you want to see and what you know from your subjective point of view.

Mando has a longer effective range, can therefore deal effective damage (high DPS) to a scrake on a wider range spectrum and also deals overall more damage in shorter time what will bring down the scrake before he moved as much as he would compared to the SWATs Vector.

And as I already said when you cant land those headshots thats your personal problem. If you say you preferre SWAT because you can't use mando to his full potential, it's all good. But what you tell me here is trying to twist the facts.

 

[Denks]

And as I have been pointing out several times you are wrong here. Obviously you and Denks don't know much about playing mando.

Try skills R-R-R-L-L and then the AK12 in burst fire mode and the scrake will have moved a shorter distance as compared to the Vector on SWAT.

If killing Scrakes solo as Commando is easier than for SWAT then I'm clearing missing something. And I'm the kinda fool who counts bullets and tallies damage per bullet. My numbers are: 18 bullets with the SCAR and 22 with the AK-12, assuming all land on the noggin and a max-level Commando with damage build, 6-man suicidal. It can surely be done. I find it hard though. Recoil + spread + head bobbing + erratic stumble animations = missed shots. Then reloading. Then pain.

Would you put a video on Youtube demonstrating this at 6-man Suicidal difficulty or higher? Otherwise I'll assume that this disaster is accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuAOVM2MO_Y

 

[mrnok14l]

Before I resume to the topic at hand, here I'll reiterate what I said in #32.

Mobility - Commando can't remain mobility while aiming.

Bullet Count - Commando can't kill as much small Zeds.

Crowd Control - Commando can't disable Zeds outright, nor hinder (slow) them reliably.

Loadout Flexibility - Commando's rifles are heavier with all of them weighing for 6 blocks.

VERSUS

Detection - SWAT can't detect invisibility.

Zed Time - SWAT can't extend Zed Time.

Firepower - SWAT can't drop Zeds as clean, nor output damage as fast.

*Note: output (action) damage ≠ dealt (outcome) damage.

---

Oh! And the free armor! Thanks to oldmidget's reminder.

I'm getting bored because you can only see what you want to see and what you know from your subjective point of view.

I'll always speak truth from on the information I know and not intentionally to speak otherwise. You have my words.

Mando has a longer effective range, can therefore deal effective damage (high DPS) to a scrake on a wider range spectrum and also deals overall more damage in shorter time what will bring down the scrake before he moved as much as he would compared to the SWATs Vector.

As I aware of, the game doesn't has damage fall-off when it comes to the range of ballistic weaponry (it only exists to the penetration and the explosion if I'm not mistaken), meaning the determining factors left to affect the effectiveness of an distant engagement in this game is: the combined accuracy - where recoil and spread/bloom are particularly immovable given unredeemed bullets simply dealt no damage.

According to my experience and knowledge, where the Commando perk really does better (or more effectively to say the least) than the SWAT perk in this topic (distant target) that just you brought up is resolved in its higher per hit damage, which is just high enough to drop small Zeds like the Gorefasts without them lingering around headlessly.

In contrast, SWAT's SMGs cannot put a neat end to such foe unless a shift strike-two is performed perfectly, hence hindering its performance as said targets essentially just became temporal covers to the co-working Zeds behind them.

In other words: the SWAT has the same potential to drop mentioned Zed as effective as a Commando, but this doesn't practically make SWAT perk itself or SWAT's SMGs to be as potent as Commando perk and its rifles in this case. For example, several dying Gorefasts/Gorefiends lingering around in a 6-manned HoE session will definitely pose some danger to say the least (if not drastically swinging the favor off the squad) especially when Gorefasts/Gorefiends prompt to raise up their AR500 blade(s) after the second shot fails to deliver.

And as I already said when you cant land those headshots thats your personal problem. If you say you preferre SWAT because you can't use mando to his full potential, it's all good. But what you tell me here is trying to twist the facts.

Perhaps missing shots might not be your problem, but it is a problem to face - not to ignore - if one intend to hit the mark, and if we want to make a valid debate by making it objective of course.

On a further note, while I didn't say anything about my capability to achieve 100% hit rate, what I have been discussing with you with my last few posts in this thread is pointing out what you claimed isn't practical - because it's biased to speak from one's performance and applies it for everyone as such statement would be only be applicable for a few of cases that it will not be the relevant as if it's indeed a determining factor. The more extreme (towards either side) the case is, the less applicable it'll be.

With each of Commando's rifle boasts inherently higher per shot damage than SWAT's SMGs on respective tiers, especially with AK-12 firing at 1200RPM during each burst; it's possible for the Commando perk to out-damage the SWAT perk during its up time (mag size).

However, just as I had pointed right from the get-go: it doesn't necessarily make the Commando perform significantly better than the SWAT as if the latter simply incomparable. To put things into perspective, it's just easier for the SWAT in the same regard (tackling Scrake) due to things I'm starting to tired of restating if you don't mind.


By the way, since you mentioned, I prefer playing as a Commando in KF2 given I'm have always been a battle rifle guy who still runs SCAR-H even in games that inherently favors fast firing weaponry for maximized TTK.

 

[Gladius]

If killing Scrakes solo as Commando is easier than for SWAT then I'm clearing missing something. And I'm the kinda fool who counts bullets and tallies damage per bullet. My numbers are: 18 bullets with the SCAR and 22 with the AK-12, assuming all land on the noggin and a max-level Commando with damage build, 6-man suicidal. It can surely be done. I find it hard though. Recoil + spread + head bobbing + erratic stumble animations = missed shots. Then reloading. Then pain.

Would you put a video on Youtube demonstrating this at 6-man Suicidal difficulty or higher? Otherwise I'll assume that this disaster is accurate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuAOVM2MO_Y

I didn't say it's easier. I'm talking about effectiveness when done right.

Here is your video: http://sendvid.com/461a4mql

 

[Denks]

I didn't say it's easier. I'm talking about effectiveness when done right.

Here is your video: http://sendvid.com/461a4mql

Dude! That's impressive. Just 33 rounds with AK-12. I know what I'm trying out tonight.