Let's talk about Survivalist

[Greenbacks]

After leveling it from 0-25 here are my thoughts.
I think it can have its place in the game, with the right tweaks. I think it's niche could be that it can handle any situation with the right weapon and is able to synergize weapons that would otherwise not work well together.

First, Why 15% damage bonus? Every other class (except medic) gets a 25% damage passive, having 15% just makes it less viable from the get-go.
Second, the level 5 skill choices can be crippling. Since the starting weapon is random, there's a large chance you will spawn with a weapon that doesn't benefit from faster reload. It also makes combining weapons from the other group less viable. Also, why exclude firebug weapons?
The level 15 skill choices forces you to go without a normal grenade.
The level 20 skill choices are lackluster; Spontaneous Zed-plosion is just silly, out of place and a copy pasta (just my opinion) and Make Things go Boom is only something you'd pick up if you're using demo weapons.

So these are the issues, but how would we go about fixing them?
I suggest making all tactical reloads and 25% faster firebug weapons reload into one skill. Call it something like "Veteran". For the 2nd skill it could be "Weapon Modifications": 25% larger mags (rounded down when necessary, no 2 shot RPGs sorry) and 10% more damage with all weapons.
I have no clue how the grenades could be sorted.
For level 20 skills I'd suggest changing Make Things go Boom to "Grenadier": Increase area of effect of all explosions AND grenades 25% and increase grenade capacity by 2. For Spontaneous Zed-plosion I'd replace it with "Weapons Master": Increase weapon switch speed 50%.
I know these ideas aren't perfect, but I'd be really interested in having weapon switch speed in there somewhere.

 

[random]

15% dmg is fair since you can use any weapon combination (at least with dmg bonus) to fill for a role that otherwise has more notirious weaknesses, the perk itself is plenty strong already, it needs tweaks indeed, but not because its weak. but that also might be because some weapons are very strong by themselves.

indeed the first choice it's bad, but not at all because of the starting weapon being random, the first few waves are warm up and it hardly makes a difference having better reload or not, on the other hand limiting weapon combinations for end game is a no go for a jack of all trades.

not sure what you mean about the grenade, but the molotov is pretty bad choice IMO.

zed-xplosion is indeed silly, but pretty fun since you get it for all weapons, damage is crap, but is quite useful at buying time.

bottom line, the perk is strong but feels unpolished and lacks something unique and fun.

i think this has been discussed a lot, but not sure where the main thread is.

 

[Greenbacks]

...

I somewhat agree with that, which is why I added the 10% to a skill instead of the passive. The thing is most perks can handle any situation now in the current build. There's lots of forgiving ammo to use and scrakes and fleshpounds are easier than before. Also using multiple weapon types doesn't prevent weaknesses that well when you have to switch to them constantly, which is also why I suggested putting faster weapon switch speed in the mix too.

What I mean with the grenade is at level 15 you're forced to either have a medic grenade or molotov. Some players might prefer to keep the HE grenade for more damage to fleshpounds or burst damage and don't want to burn themselves with molotov.

I figured survivalist has be discussed a lot so sorry about that, but it can't hurt to talk about it now that everyone's had plenty of playtime with it. Also I didn't speed level or cheat it to 25, so I kinda missed out.

 

[Tagasaki]

If this post is about before 1049 preview build, I would agree it is lackluster but still doable and really jack of all trades but now in 1049 preview build this perk really need a redo, renovate, make-over, refresh etc etc...

 

[random]

well if it had more dmg even on a skill people will just pick that anytime unless the counterpart is crazy good, you don't really need to change weapons constantly as long as you are aware of your surroundings, plus the weapon switch speed already became plenty fast a lot of updates back.

certainly this perk doesn't have peak dmg like others, but on the other hand its resistance plus melee movement speed can make him close to being OP in the right hands, if it changes direction it might need something extra for dmg, but not currently. i also leveled it the long way just in case.

everybody agrees on that grenade issue, HE instead of molotov would be great.

 

[Greenbacks]

Tactical reload actually is crazy good and I choose it on every perk, it essentially doubles your ability to hold back zeds streaming in nonstop. So I put it against the 10% damage and 25% larger mags choice. Other perks often pit it against 50% larger mags or damage boost, so I just combined the two.

Yeah weapon switching got boosted, but sharp still has faster weapon switch speed so there's no reason why the jack of all trades shouldn't have it. I think it makes sense to give him it so he can utilize different weapons faster.

My intial thought when survivalist was introduced was it's either going to replace a perk or be kinda obsolete, and right now it feels like the 2nd. But I do think it can have it's place now via utilizing different weapons with faster weapon switch speed to help handle different situations, while not being the best at handling a certain one. For example switching to shotgun to handle a pack of gorefasts/gorefiends, or switching to RPG when FPs show up. You could say he can do this already without faster weapon switching, but on more chaotic modes like HoE where zeds move crazy fast it's not that easy to do. Which is why I put it as a level 20 skill. You might think weapon switching speed is lackluster as a skill, but on a perk like survivalist I think it's really useful.

 

[PurpleFanta]

Even though this has probably been answered, 15% because you can use all of the weapons rather than just a handful.

I think the community is pretty much collectively saying that the level 5 skills need to be combined and they need another skill in the other slot entirely.

I'm with you on the level 20 skills. I hit level 15 and dont feel the desire to keep going. The level 15 skills are probably the best ones imo. They add customization without feeling like "which perk do you want to copy". You're ACTUALLY building your own perk here. Melee build with medic grenades is very powerful. What I think needs to be done to the level 20 skills is have something else added on top of them at least. Or honestly maybe even just do the same with how everyone feels about the level 5 skills and put them together and have another level 20 skill all together.

As for how to fix the grenade thing, have the level 15 one still give grenades, change the Molotov to a level 20 skill, or another skill tier.

 

[random]

yes, tactical reload is plenty good, not arguing there, was just saying that it hardly matters on wave 1, on the other hand its very useful for weapons with single fire or other low ammo count, on weapons with bigger mags is not that much needed plus you also have reload cancel. all that said i still agree that not restricting weapons combinations with the reload speed is the way to go, this is pretty much a consensus by now like purple said.

i still think he should not have any more pure raw dmg, it would be too close to normal perks with the advantage of any combination, too strong.

switch speed makes some sense when put that way, sharp has some stun combo takedowns that benefit from that, still i think we are going a bit too far with fastening up reloads and switch animations, makes all the details in them go to waste and look silly, also makes skill in choice making a lot less important.

agree on lvl20 skills being odd, like i said, the xplosion is fun and useful but the dmg is waaay bad, for both perks that have the skill, the blast size feels too niche, SURV should have a range of options, instead of taking pieces of other perks, as much as that is possible. sorry for the bad wording there.


the one thing that makes this perk a tad too strong at times is the melee movement speed, it somehow reminded me of KF1 pulling out a knife just to move faster, but its waay faster, that combined with extra resistance has allowed me to survive things in high difficulties that quite frankly should have killed me. zeker and medic are guilty of the same, sure they need more resistance, but sometimes the ammount is just silly and takes away the thrill of the game.

 

[Jorick]

15% damage bonus is rather low with some weapons who're getting a lot more from the perk trees (20% would actually be nice). Yet, I think there's something to do besides increasing its damage, the survivalist should be actually survivable compared to the other perks and not need to be babysat because it keeps burning itself. It also needs something unique as the others said, so good luck to TWI, because it's not going to be easy since you can offperk some specific weapons now.

 

[Watcher-45]

I don't get Survivalist at all. This whole class needs to be redone.

I like the idea of a classless "Jack of all trades, master of none". None of the benefits of specialized classes, but none of the restrictions either. I can pair any weapon with any weapon as best to "fill in the gap" as I see fit...
Until I get to level 5...

I love the idea of being able to use the combination of, say, an M14 and an L85. I have something that can hit hard against big zeds and something with a high ROF for crowd control.
But that's improbable come the first perk where you have to decide between heavy weapons (shotguns, rifles, explosives) or light weapons (carbines, SMGs, pistols).

Sure sure, a shotgun may work just fine along side an M14, and potentially the best crowd control weapon in the arsenal is the M16/M203 which would share that perk, but the point of the Survivaslist should NOT be to specialize! If I WANT to use a crossbow and a Vector I should be able to without hindering myself.

Also, IMHO, as is siding with the light weapons as survivalist is pointless. You get NONE of the advantages of using light weapons that their respective perks earn, which are HUGE bonuses, but you gain ZERO advantages either. You don't get the increased magazine capacity that SWAT does making the SMGs quite limited as fire-hoses for crowd control, you don't get the movement bonus associated with Gunslinger making handguns a viable choice for "clearing the way" and being able to be the one guy in ten places, and you don't get the zed time extension and reload speed bonuses associated with Commando, not to mention the Stalker call-out.
All you get is the ability to use whatever automatic you want and pair it with whatever handgun you want. So you're less effective at being SWAT or Commando than just being SWAT or Commando, and the Gunslinger never has real issues with crowd control once you have a couple pairs of pistols you can rapid-fire, so you fail as a replacement for Gunslinger as well.
So you're just a selfish "I want to use a SCAR and 1911 because 'operator'" class. Simply put, the "light weapon" classes outclass the Survivalist.
Now, this might seem a given, but follow me on this one.

The heavy side. We all know the FP is vulnerable to explosives, but resistant to bullets. We all know the SK is resistant to explosives, but vulnerable to bullets. Having someone run around with an RPG AND a Crossbow can make him effective against ALL heavy zeds. The Double-Barrel can shred Scrakes if you know how to use it, even being able to run a boomstick and an RPG is incredibly effective.
This is what the class should be, a somewhat disadvantaged class that can be molded to fill in the gaps in the existing team. We have two commandos, a medic, a berzerker, and a firebug. Go Survivalist and use explosives and a rifle and compensate. If the team has a lot of sharpshooters/demos and lacks commando/SWAT, just pick commando or SWAT and go to town on the zeds.
If we have medics, berzerkers, firebugs, etc, no Sharps or Demo and no Commando or SWAT, you can't run Survivalist and double-duty as heavy AND crowd control. Not for lack of equipment, at least, but for the very reason you will be FURTHER DISADVANTAGING YOURSELF because these weapons do NOT share the perk!


Level 10 introduces a choice between melee bonuses or healing bonuses. If you play any gun character like I do, the melee weapon is basically a wave 1-2 money saving device so this perk will soon become dead weight. The other choice is increased potency and recharge to healing. That's good on the whole. If you play like me you whip that injector out every lull and stab the guy next to you in the neck, and you spam the hell out of it at the trader. If EVERYONE can play the medic periodically, the whole team benefits. Especially as a class designed to pick up slack, this can be quite useful. Even if all you do is buy a medic pistol at higher levels to help out in emergencies, this WILL help the team and this perk makes you more effective at doing that. So it's a decent perk. Where it falls short what it's up against. These... I guess they kind of balance each other out. Like I said the melee will be useless to me in higher waves while the medic will, I should find myself switching this perk mid-game and they'll both be used decently. However, I think neither choice really shines because they're rather too specific. Being a jack of all trades may have you focused on filling in the weakest spots in combat. We're getting overrun, good thing you have an assault rifle. Oh no, there's a FP, good thing you have an RPG. I think you SHOULD be more focused on the battlefield conditions than with the status of your team, especially because the first two perks have NOTHING to do with medic weapons and apply solely to high-damaging offensive class weapons... So I feel like this perk is kind of out of place. Or at the very least implemented incorrectly.

Now it gets fun. Level 15. Increase my ammo carrying capacity by 15% (YES! More ability to cause damage!) and change my HE grenade to a... healing grenade? So you give me more ammo to increase my lethality, and simultaneously take lethality away from me? Whaaaaaat?
Or I can increase my carrying capacity by 5 (YES! I can carry an M14 AND an AA12! Nothing is safe!) and change my HE grenade to... a... seriously a Molotov?
Once again, increase my potential for lethality and strike it down by changing me out for a incapacitating thrown weapon...
Neither of these make ANY sense. If anything, the medic grenade should be tied into level 10's syringe boost. Let me choose between ammo and bigger guns WITHOUT changing my HE grenade!

Level 20. Firebug esque zed-splosion (which is always a laugh) or 25% more AOE for explosives... Wait, you just took AWAY my explosive grenades in the last perk! So unless I run a demo weapon I get NOTHING from the explosive bonus, and even IF I use a demo weapon the bonus ONLY applies to that weapon while zed-splosion applies to EVERY weapon regardless. So to take full advantage of the explosive bonus I should just use more demo weapons... Or I could just be a Demo...
So 100% zed-splosion, no contest.

Level 25. Keep doing what you do.



Analysis complete. Survivalist is, after level 10, USELESS. It's useless! It goes from the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" to "Confused and scared" in a matter of a few levels. I can't even wrap my head around what TW was thinking with this!
Looking at all the other perks and the choices they have skill to skill it seems like some newbie came in and wrote this one rather than the guys who were handling perks this entire time.

IMHO, this class needs versatility, not specialization, and what they are doing with the perks is SPECIALIZING it!

So here's what I would have done.

Lvl 5: Increased reload speed for ALL weapons/increased ammo carrying capacity. (I want more combat effectiveness/I want more combat endurance)

Lvl10: Increased armor capacity/Increased weapon damage (I want more survivability/I want more damage output)

Lvl15: Increased Stun or Stumble with appropriate weapons/Medic syringe buffs and change to healing grenades (I want to support my team through combat/I want to support my team directly)

lvl20: increased carry weight/increased movement speed and clots no-grab (I want to be the Terminator/I want to be "Johnny on the spot")

lvl25: just keep doing what you do.

This way you can be whatever the hell you want to be, play whatever style you want, fill in whatever gaps appear as necessary, nothing is dependent on a particular weapon, nothing forces a play-style. It's all as ambiguous as possible for the true Jack of all Trades player. You CAN use a Railgun and an MP7, you CAN use an RPG and duel Deagles, you DON'T have to sacrifice your HE grenades, and if you want to be a true combat medic you can use a SCAR but still dish out the heals where necessary.


I just got finished playing and am the embodiment of the Jackie Chan "WTF" meme right now.

 

[2Clicks]

I don't get Survivalist at all. This whole class needs to be redone.

Nice post. I agree with some of what you write.

For me the clue is in the name - Survivalist. Its not supposed to be the best at using any particular weapon, but its supposed to be at least able to survive or out-survive all (or most at least) of the other perks. Either using its speed or having more protective layers. And so it is.

One by-product of the current design is that by doing what theyve done the developers have made playing this perk "harder" for some players. Mainly bc it doesnt conform to their usual style of play. Personally I enjoy the challenge that the perk brings in its current form.

Will it get a redesign? Probably but who knows and when.

 

[infntnub]

I've revisited survivalist since buying a few new cosmetics.

The only way I really enjoy it in the present state is to mix a melee weapon - with the level 10 zerk perk skill/speed - along with an rpg or m79 (depending on my dosh).

Which means I take the heavy weapons level 5 skill to reload demo gear faster..

Throw in the medic nades at level 15 it's pretty fun to toss a nade down amongst an army of trash and then go "slice and dice" on them. The moment something big comes around the corner I rely on the rpg. Unfortunately it doesn't have the same stopping power it would with an on perk Demo and all I really do is make the Scrakes and FP's angry (lol).

Overall, maybe this was the intended blueprint for the perk though? I mean the perk skills seem to push you to wanting to have at least some melee weapon. The accompanying arsenal is pretty much user preference. I tend to favor Demo and try to fit RPG in quite a few random loadouts on perks.

I will need to try out being an offperk firebug and perhaps try the molatov nade option on level 15. Quite a few variations I have yet to try since I pretty much started as a "demo wannabe" survivalist from the beginning.

 

[Denks]

I actually kind of like Survivalist. He's my favorite M14 EBR perk (at level 25). Zedplosion skill is just icing on this cake. Throw in an RPG and a Katana and you've got something to counter every ZED type. I use the Katana for parrying heavies that get too close and for saving ammo.

 

[infntnub]

At level 21 now and the perk seems viable enough for Suicidal - maybe there is hope for using it in a productive manner on HOE?

Not saying I have gotten there yet.

Overall though, very surprised with the perk as I have gotten to the upper end of the levels. It is amongst my top 3 or 4 favorite perks to play, no doubt.

/edit

Just wanted to add..

Second, the level 5 skill choices can be crippling. Since the starting weapon is random, there's a large chance you will spawn with a weapon that doesn't benefit from

I have decided the best solution to this problem is to just spawn wave 1 as something else. It's not a 'solution' by any means but for now it's the best thing you can choose to do. Generally I spawn as zerker and switch perks for wave 2.

 

[flashn00b]

Anyone already at Level 25? I'm curious as to how the 25% Damage Resistance compares with the Berserker's Resistance skill.

Being a Zerker main, my main concern with the perk was that it would be outclassed by the Survivalist, since you could pick Melee Expert for Zerker damage, while the Tactical Reload and passive damage bonus allows you to play without the "melee class in a ranged game" weakness that the Zerker inherently has, and if you had troubles netting melee kills due to someone else shooting the zeds you're charging, you'll likely agree how jarring said weakness is. I feel as if the best course of action to prevent the Survivalist from deprecating the Zerker is to give a dedicated ranged weapon to the melee class.

As for the Level 10 skill, I personally can't help but note that a fairly common complaint is having to choose between better melee and better heals. Perhaps these changes would be favourable?

Mad Doctor: Essentially Melee Expert and Medic Training rolled into a single skill
CQB Training: Increase melee attack speed and damage with all weapons by 15% and 10% respectively. Also move 25% faster with melee weapons.

 

[infntnub]

Anyone already at Level 25? I'm curious as to how the 25% Damage Resistance compares with the Berserker's Resistance skill.

Being a Zerker main, my main concern with the perk was that it would be outclassed by the Survivalist

I'm not sure what level your survivalist is at currently - but if level 21 is any indication the Zerker has nothing to be worried about. It's still by far the most durable perk in the game.

Switching between the 2 perks (level 25 zerk and level 21 survivalist) it is hard to imagine a level 25 survivalist even comes close to outclassing the zerk at what it's designed to do. I wouldn't be concerned at all, man.

 

[Jorick]

Melee survivalists just make me laugh :

No regeneration (or alternatively access to 175 hp)
(much) less damage
can be grabbed
No access to parry or resistance perks.

I mean, it was said 3 months ago, it still hasn't changed. Survivalist is just some half funny gimmick once you start digging a little.

 

[infntnub]

Melee survivalists just make me laugh :

No regeneration (or alternatively access to 175 hp)
(much) less damage
can be grabbed
No access to parry or resistance perks.

I mean, it was said 3 months ago, it still hasn't changed. Survivalist is just some half funny gimmick once you start digging a little.

If a survivalist had any of that why would anyone want to play zerker...

While a Survivalist is never going to be as effective at a perk's specialty as that perk, they can get close while at the same time aslo bringing several other perks' strengths to the table.

Weakness

• Jack of All Trades, Master of None

If you try to play the survivalist as a true zerker you will ultimately be a liability - that's not the point of the perk as far as I understand. I slice and dice when I see groups of light trash and use whatever other class weapon for everything else. Whether it be a hunting shotgun or rpg.

In the event you do find yourself wanting to try to be a more aggressive melee survivalist you must pick your spots. Throwing a med nade at your feet prior to unleashing chaos is advised.

I will say this - the 20% chance of a zed exploding from the level 20 skill is helping offset some of the lacking overall damage output as far as I have seen. I'm very happy they included that skill in the perk's tree.

 

[Jorick]

And as I said months ago, there's a difference between being half as effective as a zerk (or any specialized perk for that matter), and being ineffective to the point you're better off pulling an actual zerker (or any specialist) considering how lackluster the survivalist perk is. Any 20% explosion RNG bs won't make it any better, and so won't the medic nades without any decent healing ability tied to them. Many people just went for boombstick RPG M79 combo/pseudo-zerk and didn't touch it afterwards, me included.

I'm just so sad they didn't buff the survivalist last patch, was hoping for something to happen at last.

 

[flashn00b]

I'm not sure what level your survivalist is at currently - but if level 21 is any indication the Zerker has nothing to be worried about. It's still by far the most durable perk in the game.

Switching between the 2 perks (level 25 zerk and level 21 survivalist) it is hard to imagine a level 25 survivalist even comes close to outclassing the zerk at what it's designed to do. I wouldn't be concerned at all, man.

Well, when trying to earn that Pulverizer money, I've always felt that the Crovel was more of a "Switch to your pistol; it's faster than reloading" weapon than it is a viable primary, even on the Berserker. Because of this, I have to wonder if Zerker's early game consists of Survivalist gameplay so as to take advantage of the reload bonuses of off-perk primary weapons.

If you tried to stick to Croveling, zeds will die before you get into your most effective range, and if you're not killing. You're not earning. Not earning means no pulverizer, meaning you need to drop your dosh and leave the server before scrakes spawning