WWAUT - Heading Into 2017

[oxy]

Alright let me say some things that we're all thinking and no one is talking about. (I think)

Killing Floor 2 is a niche game with a medium sized fan base. The initial goal of Tripwire, to create the next Killing Floor game, has been reached. No doubt the development team now is probably less than half the size of what it was when they were cranking out the 7 basic classes. Companies that create games do so for the money nowadays. Tripwire is not seeing the sales of the game as they were when the game was in early access.

Remember the graphs showing the people employed by Tripwire and what specifically they where working on and how long it would take them? I do. And I will tell you that Tripwire doesn't have the money to keep that size of a staff on board forever. Tripwire has battened down the hatches and slimmed down their staff in preparation for the long maintenance of the game. So of course we're probably never going to see a huge update of content again. It's going to be small increments like this one.

TL;DR
Tripwire doesn't have money to pay lots of staff to make tons content. Low money = low content.

 

[simplecat]

This must be an old post but i think the point still stands https://steamcommunity.com/app/232090/discussions/0/617336568088468525/

Check out how much time it takes on average to create a weapon or map.

 

[FxBloodhunter]

They may change the game a ton but they would be ridiculously easy to implement. Unless I'm mistaken, it would've taken very little effort to implement.

What I don't understand is what they have been doing all this time, it seems like very little has happened over the last few months (over the course of early access really). I don't know where their priorities lie, be it with another game or with some secret stuff for KF2 that they're working on. Regardless, it would be nice to know why so little has been happening. Holidays don't help, I know. The problem is that many people have the expectation that stuff should be added at a faster rate than it is currently being added - myself included - and we have not been told why that expectation hasn't been met.

If KF2 isn't your focus, or if you simply won't be spending all that much time on it, just let us know, that's all we're asking for (well many of us anyway). I just don't understand why, if you actually are focusing on KF2, the updates are so... lacking.

Play other games if you cant wait. I play kf2 about 20h in week. And playing other games 30-40h.

 

[Pharrahnox]

Play other games if you cant wait. I play kf2 about 20h in week. And playing other games 30-40h.

Did I say I can't wait? No. I don't mean to sound impatient. I know what I said can certainly be interpreted that way, but all I'm asking is why it's taking as long as it is. Don't take it as a complaint, take it as a query. Yes I remember that post simplecat, but Survivalist and the most recent update do not involve heaps of new weapons or even many new perk skills.

 

[infntnub]

If KF2 isn't your focus, or if you simply won't be spending all that much time on it, just let us know, that's all we're asking for (well many of us anyway). I just don't understand why, if you actually are focusing on KF2, the updates are so... lacking.

I can see where you are coming from with this.

It's a bit troubling for a game so new/fresh to have such voids in between updates. Although we do, for the most part, get glimpses of what is coming our way eventually.

Spending time playing other games is what I found to help me when I get impatient (or bored). KF1 did seem to have more frequent updates, but maybe KF2 will as well once everything is in a more complete state.

 

[Yoshiro]

A few points:

• Yes, we are a multi-studio game with multiple fires in the oven at any given time
  • We have been this way since the original Killing Floor when we were still working on Red Orchestra: Ostfront updates
  • Some of the team that worked on KF 2 has rolled off the project as we don't currently have tasks for them on it
    • If tasks that they are needed for are in a sprint, they will roll back on KF 2
• While games are easier to make than ever before, complex and detailed games are harder and more expensive to make than ever before
  • We are continuing to grow as a studio to handle the load under which we assign ourselves
  • We learned through a hard lesson that crunch is never the right answer (some small over time may apply) and work life balance is far more important than shipping an update that is worse off because we killed ourselves to ship it
• Killing Floor 1 (and most of our previous titles) averaged about 1 content update a quarter (with smaller patches/bug fixes in between as needed)
• Killing Floor 1 took years (5) of post launch additions to get to its full list of content that many hold up to as why doesn't KF 2 have this yet
  • KF 2 has already shipped with far more content than KF 1 did and our plans for post launch content are also far greater in terms of the scope of what we are undertaking

We have an exciting year ahead for KF 2 and we hope everybody will enjoy whats coming.

 

[oldschool]

We have an exciting year ahead for KF 2 and we hope everybody will enjoy whats coming.

Thank You for the response. It is encouraging to hear that their will more coming this year.

 

[Pharrahnox]

Perfect, thanks.

 

[zsautoman]

A few points:

• Yes, we are a multi-studio game with multiple fires in the oven at any given time
  • We have been this way since the original Killing Floor when we were still working on Red Orchestra: Ostfront updates
  • Some of the team that worked on KF 2 has rolled off the project as we don't currently have tasks for them on it
    • If tasks that they are needed for are in a sprint, they will roll back on KF 2
• While games are easier to make than ever before, complex and detailed games are harder and more expensive to make than ever before
  • We are continuing to grow as a studio to handle the load under which we assign ourselves
  • We learned through a hard lesson that crunch is never the right answer (some small over time may apply) and work life balance is far more important than shipping an update that is worse off because we killed ourselves to ship it
• Killing Floor 1 (and most of our previous titles) averaged about 1 content update a quarter (with smaller patches/bug fixes in between as needed)
• Killing Floor 1 took years (5) of post launch additions to get to its full list of content that many hold up to as why doesn't KF 2 have this yet
  • KF 2 has already shipped with far more content than KF 1 did and our plans for post launch content are also far greater in terms of the scope of what we are undertaking

We have an exciting year ahead for KF 2 and we hope everybody will enjoy whats coming.

thx for being informative, this time everybody should be happy now.

 

[imnrk]

thx for being informative, this time everybody should be happy now.

people always find something to complain about

 

[ButtProblems.]

People that don't remember KF1 at launch or the tier 3 weapons update being a huge, game-breaking change that pissed veterans off. Yes, people didn't want new weapons. As long as the siren bug gets fixed it's going to be a solid update.

 

[oldschool]

I would like to challenge the Devs this new year to put their money where their mouth is and begin utilizing the assets they already have created.

Yes, we are a multi-studio game with multiple fires in the oven at any given time

2 of those being Red Orchstra 2 and Rising Storm Vietnam. You already have assets created for those genre's. It would not be too difficult to slightly modify them for KF2. Like in the posted video below. It would easily quiet some of the murmurs for new content in the game without asking you to start from scratch. Just a suggestion on my part i hope you may take into consideration.

 

[infntnub]

A few points:

• Yes, we are a multi-studio game with multiple fires in the oven at any given time
  • We have been this way since the original Killing Floor when we were still working on Red Orchestra: Ostfront updates
  • Some of the team that worked on KF 2 has rolled off the project as we don't currently have tasks for them on it
    • If tasks that they are needed for are in a sprint, they will roll back on KF 2
• While games are easier to make than ever before, complex and detailed games are harder and more expensive to make than ever before
  • We are continuing to grow as a studio to handle the load under which we assign ourselves
  • We learned through a hard lesson that crunch is never the right answer (some small over time may apply) and work life balance is far more important than shipping an update that is worse off because we killed ourselves to ship it
• Killing Floor 1 (and most of our previous titles) averaged about 1 content update a quarter (with smaller patches/bug fixes in between as needed)
• Killing Floor 1 took years (5) of post launch additions to get to its full list of content that many hold up to as why doesn't KF 2 have this yet
  • KF 2 has already shipped with far more content than KF 1 did and our plans for post launch content are also far greater in terms of the scope of what we are undertaking

We have an exciting year ahead for KF 2 and we hope everybody will enjoy whats coming.

As always - I like seeing the transparency you present, Yoshi.

One thing I think most would like to have seen shared though is a general ETA on when the BETA will go live? I was never part of a similar BETA in KF1 after the game was in "full release" so I have no baseline to reference. Now that your team is back up and running from the holidays hopefully you have a rough timeline you can share.

 

[Jack-Carver]

I would like to challenge the Devs this new year to put their money where their mouth is and begin utilizing the assets they already have created.



2 of those being Red Orchstra 2 and Rising Storm Vietnam. You already have assets created for those genre's. It would not be too difficult to slightly modify them for KF2. Like in the posted video below. It would easily quiet some of the murmurs for new content in the game without asking you to start from scratch. Just a suggestion on my part i hope you may take into consideration.

It's not as easy, as you think it is. If I know right, the weaponmodels in KF2 and RO are differently made. IN KF2 many parts need to be movable. That would take lots of rework. And then these games have completely different styles and animations. A simple port just looks off then.
Don't get me wrong, but the MG32 in the video is far away from KF2s quality standards. You would have to mocap the the animations for it, rework the whole model, sounds, textures etc... Which means a lot of work and also costs. And sticking to a certain quality standard usually is a good thing. Once you start getting sloppy and just integrate stuff quickly, so there's more variety, the game quickly will loose its "shine" in my opinion.

 

[oldschool]

I disagree. I didn't say just port it over and throw it in the game willy nilly. There would have to be some thought and modifications to the animations, textures and gameplay usag, but the asset already exists. Saying that I myself am not as experienced as some of community and was able to get a model working in game. Is it finished quality, ofc not. Others can do better than I can I'm sure, but I have faith in the Devs abilities and was only pointing them in a possibly new direction that might be easier and more cost effective.

if your curious as to the similarities in the packages pull one from RO2 and open it up in KF2SDK.

Something to think about IMO.

 

[pie1055]

I think Carver's point is that it would take longer to modify the asset to quality standards than to make it from scratch.

For every piece that moves you would have to model the underside of it and the topside of the base model it rests on/is attached to, separate those from each other and add bones into the animation hierarchy for them which also means rigging them, create textures for those areas which would all but certainly require you to completely redo the UV map of the model, which would also require you to remake normal maps, specular maps, etc. All animations would be unusable as they are most likely not in the 240 frames per second range and you can't just make them be at that range without actually having detailed movement that the lower range does not allow. When it's all said and done not much is left from the original asset. Maybe sounds, muzzle flash effects, and bullet effects/sounds/some physics properties?

I'm sure there's other things that would need to be redone as I'm only going off of memory from my experience around a year ago with this sort of thing but it's not as simple as unfolding a paper airplane and refolding it into a paper boat. In addition, if this method was worth doing wouldn't you think they would have already done it?

All that being said, I agree that it would be awesome if they could port weapons like that but Killing Floor and Red Orchestra require different things from their weaponry(elite reloads, prone animations, perk bonuses, achievement tie-ins, etc). I still want a bolt-action rifle in some form, goddammit.

 

[slayer123]

When will this beta end? Please hurry people are leaving the beta version and it's splitting the community into 2.

 

[Jack-Carver]

I think Carver's point is that it would take longer to modify the asset to quality standards than to make it from scratch.

For every piece that moves you would have to model the underside of it and the topside of the base model it rests on/is attached to, separate those from each other and add bones into the animation hierarchy for them which also means rigging them, create textures for those areas which would all but certainly require you to completely redo the UV map of the model, which would also require you to remake normal maps, specular maps, etc. All animations would be unusable as they are most likely not in the 240 frames per second range and you can't just make them be at that range without actually having detailed movement that the lower range does not allow. When it's all said and done not much is left from the original asset. Maybe sounds, muzzle flash effects, and bullet effects/sounds/some physics properties?

I'm sure there's other things that would need to be redone as I'm only going off of memory from my experience around a year ago with this sort of thing but it's not as simple as unfolding a paper airplane and refolding it into a paper boat. In addition, if this method was worth doing wouldn't you think they would have already done it?

All that being said, I agree that it would be awesome if they could port weapons like that but Killing Floor and Red Orchestra require different things from their weaponry(elite reloads, prone animations, perk bonuses, achievement tie-ins, etc). I still want a bolt-action rifle in some form, goddammit.

Exactly! It's just like if we would port our old Weaponpacks from KF1 to KF2. We just would have to redo everything from scratch because reworking all that stuff would probably take the same amount of time and it's not really clean.

 

[jd641]

Exactly! It's just like if we would port our old Weaponpacks from KF1 to KF2. We just would have to redo everything from scratch because reworking all that stuff would probably take the same amount of time and it's not really clean.

It's not just that, they'd have to balance the weapons, figure out which ones will be cross perk (another balance issue) and address the problem of how to deal with the Survivalists weapons list in the trader since it's already a mess. I can't imagine trying to sort through another 6 or 7 weapon when it takes so long to buy what I want right now.

BTW I'm sure that even if this was done and would satisfy some people, there would be others that would be complaining that TWI were being lazy and copy/pasting work from their other games.

 

[NED79]

When will this beta end? Please hurry people are leaving the beta version and it's splitting the community into 2.

That plus some server hosting companies will not run beta builds. People are paying for a server that cannot run the latest version of the game. Make this beta official and make the other changes in a later update or beta.

Thanks